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Thread: Not Intuitively Obvious

  1. #1

    Not Intuitively Obvious

    Local range had a "free rental" day for "members." Had to buy their ammo to shoot in their guns, but it was not terribly expensive.
    So I picked a Kimber 9mm with a slide mounted red dot sight. Sorry, I don't remember the brand.

    You (or at least I) cannot expect to pick one of these things up and do good work with it.
    I was pulling shots low left like a new Glock owner. I finally realized I was snatching at the trigger when the dot looked right.
    I could slow way down and hit but that is not what a "carry optic" is for.
    I can do ok with an elderly Tasco on my even more elderly High Standard at Steel Challenge, but a centerfire on a silhouette was a different proposition.
    So expect to have to put in a good deal of practice with your new battery sight.

    I also found the cow witness iron sights in the window to be a distraction. I know one guy who has gone pure CO for that reason.

    I got out my iron sight gun and shot normally with it, so CO is not on my planning horizon.
    Code Name: JET STREAM

  2. #2
    The dot does make a wobble more obvious, but it doesn't take much time to get used to that really.


    That aside, I would have next to zero confidence that rental dot pistol had been zeroed to my satisfaction.
    “Well," said Pooh, "what I like best," and then he had to stop and think. Because although Eating Honey was a very good thing to do, there was a moment just before you began to eat it which was better than when you were, but he didn't know what it was called.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by YVK View Post
    That aside, I would have next to zero confidence that rental dot pistol had been zeroed to my satisfaction.
    I'd have 100% confidence that it was NOT zeroed.


    Okie John
    “The reliability of the 30-06 on most of the world’s non-dangerous game is so well established as to be beyond intelligent dispute.” Finn Aagaard
    "Don't fuck with it" seems to prevent the vast majority of reported issues." BehindBlueI's

  4. #4
    Member GearFondler's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Watson View Post
    I also found the cow witness iron sights in the window to be a distraction. I know one guy who has gone pure CO for that reason.

    I got out my iron sight gun and shot normally with it, so CO is not on my planning horizon.
    Any new system will require some familiarization and practice.

    As far as BUIS are concerned, if it's for a carry gun I highly recommend having them. If it's a gamer/range gun then it doesn't matter, but a social gun needs them.

    1. You need to have another option in case the RDS craps the bed.

    2. The irons allow you to instantly verify that the RDS is still zeroed.

    3. The irons help beginners to find the dot as they learn to transition to dot only.

    4. With a proper target focus (versus a dot focus) the irons will disappear from your sight, particularly if they are set low in the window.

  5. #5
    Site Supporter CCT125US's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by okie john View Post
    I'd have 100% confidence that it was NOT zeroed.


    Okie John
    Funny story....

    When the Sig MPX first came out, I really wanted one. Thought it would make a great suppressor host with a red dot. Throw on a brace of some sort, gosh that would be slick.
    So one day I walk into the shop, and something catches my eye. A staff member had in hand exactly what I described. An SBR MPX, Sig red dot, and a can. He asked if I wanted to put a mag through it.

    Somehow I managed an unenthusiastic, "couldn't hurt". Knowing this may just cost me $3k....

    He cases up the gun, and I head into the range. Run a B8 out to 25 yards, and take position in lane 7. Push the magwell into the bench top, put my weight behind it, center the dot, slow press to the rear. Repeat 9 more times. Thinking this is going to be 100-10x for sure.
    I scored near a 50, if I recall. Buckshot would have done better.

    Quickly discovered the mount was loose. Grabbed an allen wrench and torqued them down. I figure a few loose screws soured my first impression just enough, and saved me some money.

    Red dots work best when they are zeroed, and torqued.
    SWYNTS

  6. #6
    Red dots are no doubt the future of handgun sights, not due in small part because Americans love hardware solutions to software problems. And, in all honesty, they are (a bit) more than that.

    Too many good shooters rely on them to be just a technological fad akin to lasers.

    However, at the distances the majority of pistols are used at, iron sights work just fine with a much shorter learning curve. As the distances grow, the advantages of the red dot are more apparent, inversely proportional to the chances of having to engage a threat at that range.

    To be fair, we don't carry because we believe the odds are gong to be in our favor on any given day.

    End of story: if you want to invest the $$$, good work can certainly be done with dots. But, don't let the American zeal for techno gadgets make you feel as if you are dead where you stand because you have iron sights - lots and lots of hospital beds and gravesites have been occupied by people put down by their opponents using irons.

  7. #7
    Site Supporter LtDave's Avatar
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    Another reason why red dots are becoming popular is that older shooters can't see their iron sights as well as they used to. Red dot fixes that. I'm 63 and to use irons effectively, I have to wear special glasses so I can focus on the front sight. They also make it hard to discern what someone has in their hands past 5-7 yards. Unfortunately those glasses are not the ones I normally wear when out and about. The red dot is also a great tool for learning trigger control. Every jerk of the trigger is clearly shown by the dot.
    The first indication a bad guy should have that I'm dangerous is when his
    disembodied soul is looking down at his own corpse wondering what happened.

  8. #8
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    Red Dot sights are great if you have old eyes

    I'm almost 62, had cataract surgery about 10 years ago, and the front sight is kind of blurry even when I'm wearing my glasses.

    An RDS helps a lot, particularly when shooting on an indoor range with spooky or uneven lighting.

    I need to do some serious work with a timer to see what my times are when shooting some standard drills like the El Presidente. I have the feeling the dot is a little slower on multiple targets at close range but I do not yet have data on my own performance to determine that one way or the other

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drifting Fate View Post
    Red dots are no doubt the future of handgun sights, not due in small part because Americans love hardware solutions to software problems. And, in all honesty, they are (a bit) more than that.

    Too many good shooters rely on them to be just a technological fad akin to lasers.

    However, at the distances the majority of pistols are used at, iron sights work just fine with a much shorter learning curve. As the distances grow, the advantages of the red dot are more apparent, inversely proportional to the chances of having to engage a threat at that range.

    To be fair, we don't carry because we believe the odds are gong to be in our favor on any given day.

    End of story: if you want to invest the $$$, good work can certainly be done with dots. But, don't let the American zeal for techno gadgets make you feel as if you are dead where you stand because you have iron sights - lots and lots of hospital beds and gravesites have been occupied by people put down by their opponents using irons.
    The learning curve you mention only applies to someone who has spent decades shooting pistols with iron sights.

    A new shooter who starts with RDS does not have those issues. For them, it is intuitive. We see this with new rifle shooter all the time.

    It is harder to break a habit than learn a new habit. For experienced shooters who put the work in, the RDS is just as fast or faster up close.

    It’s not magic, a one focal plane sighting system is going to be faster than a 3 focal plane sighting system. The older you get the slower your eye will be to accommodate between those focal planes.

    The movement you see in the dot is always there, it is just more noticeable with the dot. Though this may cause transitional shooters to snatch the trigger trying to get a “Kodak moment” with the dot in the perfect spot. Ironically, once you accept the wobble zone, seeing those micro movements is what make the dot so much easier to shoot at distance. The dot lets you see sight movement that normally requires better than 20/20 vision to see.

    The other issue we see with transitional shooters is adjusting to target/threat focus and not chasing the dot like it’s a front sight. Related to this is accepting that unlike on a rifle, the acceptable sight picture for close range pistol work is often a red smear on the target, if you are waiting for the dot to settle you will be slower than irons.

    If you have young (<40) eyes with 20/20 or better vision you can do just as well with irons but time catches up with us all.

  10. #10
    Member GearFondler's Avatar
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    An RDS is also a hell of a lot easier to see/use in low light environments than tritium irons.

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