That's not surprising, actually, except that I wasn't aware S&W was under the burden of unions. I've often compared the quality issues coming out of S&W to the bad old days of the American automobile. And Colt is in the same boat. Good product designs and specs with indifferent quality reaching customers. Maybe they both need to go bankrupt and get bought by Beretta...except that we've seen some indifferent quality results coming out of Gallatin, too.
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Not another dime.
I don't have any TN produced Berettas yet, but I seriously hope it's just some growing pains from making the move.Originally Posted by OlongJohnson
Maybe you can explain why Boeing is having enough QA/QC problems with the airplanes made in their South Carolina plant (non unionized) that some airlines will only accept airplanes made in their Everett plant (unionized).
If we have to march off into the next world, let us walk there on the bodies of our enemies.
When Remington bought Marlin, it was reported that non union temporary workers were hired to produce the the new Remlins. Anyway, something went amiss with quality.
The FN handguns are example of pistols designed by committee. I owned several but was always disappointed. Input from a few shooters and a couple expert pistol smiths could have brought about a better product.
20 years ago I was talking shop with a Beretta tech who had made an observation similar to mine. When I asked why he did not share his observation with his bosses, he very rapidly stated that they had zero interest in anything he had to say. As Beretta 92 contracts are completed, my opinion is that the famous Beretta quality may lessen. That's the way that works. According to the NRA magazine from years past, the Marine Corps's dissatisfaction with the Colt M16 prompted them to place nco inspectors at the plant to inspect each and every rifle made for Marines. This was during the Vietnam War.
The source of the QA/QC issues could be everything from the management all the way down to workers not understanding jobs to damage caused by the plant layout. Without actually being there and working the issues, everyone is plain guessing. The most likely guess is that management compressed the startup/ramp up times due to unrealistic production goals and/or have people not well suited to running manufacturing lines in positions of authority. Stuff that works when you do it once or twice a day may not work when you do it once or twice a minute. Getting plants to create stable output is a blend of science, engineering, and personnel skills.
I have bootstrapped manufacturing locations from bare buildings to six-sigma mass production capabilities for the automotive industry, and every time is a bit of an echo to the last. Certainly proper training of personnel is key. Companies often learn the hard way that skilled labor is not fungible. Processes that work well with one workforce tend to fail with a workforce with a different culture. The most successful approach has been to start a new location with workers from an existing location, but it is an expensive approach due to the travel and relocation expenses and the need to hire at both the old and new locations. You need enough people drawn from the old location to start the new location while not crippling what makes the old location successful.
Can you explain how the union contributes to quality?
That was certainly not the experience of any friends who worked in unionized facilities. At least one was told to work more slowly or they would injure him so that the injury would slow him down.
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I'm not going to argue that point. I posted it as a counterpoint to those who claim that not being unionized is a factor in quality.
A union plant is, in my opinion, proof of shoddy management. I've seen that first-hand.
If we have to march off into the next world, let us walk there on the bodies of our enemies.
I can't say whether union culture contributed to your friend's experience or not, but, I've seen similar in a non-union environment in an industry with no history of unionization. A delegation of production workers approached the quality control inspector after hours to let him know he was flagging too many production errors and making them look bad. Later, production workers got caught, under camera, sabotaging equipment that had passed QC. All trying to make the QC inspector look bad and get him fired. Bad culture and management on the production line and not a union in sight.
Last edited by Half Moon; 11-11-2019 at 10:57 AM.
I was taught long ago by an anti-union labor consultant that any business with a union deserved it.
Regional Government Sales Manager for Aimpoint, Inc. USA
Co-owner Hardwired Tactical Shooting (HiTS)
In the time before I went off to the big city to get educated, I worked in a panel board factory that unionized, and I guess you can say that the plant management deserved it; however, the corporate bosses slowly let the plant die as an example to others.
I had an ER nurse in a class. I noticed she kept taking all head shots. Her response when asked why, "'I've seen too many people who have been shot in the chest putting up a fight in the ER." Point taken.
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