LE uniforms dressing down ?

[Cypher]

More trained and vetted people armed in more places make society safer.

By that reasoning I should be able to carry a gun everywhere you can.

However, removing the ability of off-duty LEOs to do the same thing based on little more than an “it’s not fair!” jealousy-fueled tantrum would not be beneficial to public safety.

LEOSA has nothing to do with Public Safety it's about officer safety. It's so that if you run in to Joe's schmoe that you put in jail 12 years ago in New York City you can have a gun to protect herself with but if I was the witness whose testimony actually convicted Joe? Sucks to be me.

By creating a class of special rights for Agents Of The State the government ensures that at least a portion of law enforcement will support The State's efforts to disarm the citizenry.

"There's no reason for you to protest this law Officer Malloy, after all you're exempt (until everyone else is disarmed then we're coming for your guns too.)"

The Founder's intent was that the citizenry be able to maintain parity with the government or at least some semblance thereof.

I'm a law-abiding citizen is the world really that much more dangerous of a place if I have a 17 round magazine as opposed to a 15-round magazine? Is your job really that much more dangerous if I have a select fire M16 instead of a select fire AR-15? Is it really a threat to officer safety if I drive from Colorado Springs to Omaha with my concealed handgun? (Colorado and Nebraska have reciprocosity) is Colorado really made safer because they won't recognize a non-resident Utah handgun permit?

Because you know criminals are going to get that shit if they want it so why would you support laws that only affect the ability of the law-abiding to defend themselves?

Just curious what state are you in?

[Erick Gelhaus]

I don't see any reason for CIVILIAN Police Officers to be running around in literally The Army Combat Uniform, complete with unit patches and the like. I realize my objection is purely psychological but you're not the Army and you shouldn't pretend to be the Army. I don't how to say this exactly, but there needs to be a clear distinction between the CIVIL police and the Army.

I also don't think you should have anything on your belt that I can't buy at my LGS including fully automatic weapons.

literally
[ˈlidərəlē, ˈlitrəlē]
ADVERB
informal
used for emphasis or to express strong feeling while not being literally true.

What, specifically, about the ACU patterned uniforms are you opposed to for street cops? Is it the cargo pockets on the trousers or the velcro covered pockets on the sleeves? Because there are reasonable uses for the cargo pockets. Sleeve pockets are useful when one is wearing an external vest carrier - regardless of what I think about those.
Or, is it the camouflage, whether UCP or the MC/Scorpion pattern? If that's it, then I agree, I'm not a fan of camo for street cops. I'm only good with its use for rural surveillance operations or sniper deployments where there is a real concern about being identified. I wore the old woodland pattern doing rural surveillance on a variety of narcotics manufacturing or trafficking groups. Given that two of the most active, best trained L/E tactical teams, on the west coast both wear solid color uniforms, I'm not inclined to support camo for the majority of L/E tactical operations.

What is your concern about insignia that clearly identifies us as the police? Given the need to be readily, easily identifiable as the POLICE why the opposition to insignia that identifies us?

The traditional L/E patrol uniform is about as military as it gets, it's a straight carry-over from the Mil's Class B uniforms. That's where it came from. As a profession, for about the last 20-25 years, we have finally adopted a functional duty uniform. Shirts were sewn-on or embroidered insignia, meaning we aren't wasting time polishing metal or losing it. Trousers that are cut for function and movement with useable pockets for all that we need to carry. I could go into greater detail but I'm not sure what your specific objections are.

I am curious though about a couple of things: Do you object to us carrying emergency medical equipment, like IFAKs? How do you feel about the fire service's protective equipment? It's kevlar & nomex, they've got handheld & helmet-mounted FLIR, plus far more safety equipment than we routinely use.

(edited for formatting)

[Cypher]

literally
[ˈlidərəlē, ˈlitrəlē]
ADVERB
informal
used for emphasis or to express strong feeling while not being literally true.

What, specifically, about the ACU patterned uniforms are you opposed to for street cops? Is it the cargo pockets on the trousers or the velcro covered pockets on the sleeves? Because there are reasonable uses for the cargo pockets. Sleeve pockets are useful when one is wearing an external vest carrier - regardless of what I think about those.
Or, is it the camouflage, whether UCP or the MC/Scorpion pattern? If that's it, then I agree, I'm not a fan of camo for street cops. I'm only good with its use for rural surveillance operations or sniper deployments where there is a real concern about being identified. I wore the old woodland pattern doing rural surveillance on a variety of narcotics manufacturing or trafficking groups. Given that two of the most active, best trained L/E tactical teams, on the west coast both wear solid color uniforms, I'm not inclined to support camo for the majority of L/E tactical operations.

What is your concern about insignia that clearly identifies us as the police? Given the need to be readily, easily identifiable as the POLICE why the opposition to insignia that identifies us?

The traditional L/E patrol uniform is about as military as it gets, it's a straight carry-over from the Mil's Class B uniforms. That's where it came from. As a profession, for about the last 20-25 years, we have finally adopted a functional duty uniform. Shirts were sewn-on or embroidered insignia, meaning we aren't wasting time polishing metal or losing it. Trousers that are cut for function and movement with useable pockets for all that we need to carry. I could go into greater detail but I'm not sure what your specific objections are.

I am curious though about a couple of things: Do you object to us carrying emergency medical equipment, like IFAKs? How do you feel about the fire service's protective equipment? It's kevlar & nomex, they've got handheld & helmet-mounted FLIR, plus far more safety equipment than we routinely use.

(edited for formatting)

I made myself very clear a civilian should not be running around and what is LITERALLY a military uniform. I want to be clear I'm not talking about an ACU "patterned" uniform Why do you need desert or woodland camouflage in downtown Colorado Springs?

I don't even care if you wear an ACU style uniform as long as it's a different color. I want to be able to tell the difference between a cop and a soldier at a glance. To quote Gunny Highway in Heartbreak Ridge " If you start looking like Marines maybe you'll start acting like Marines"

And please don't tell me that the pattern or the style or the color of the clothing doesn't matter because if that was true they wouldn't be trying to dress the cops up to look like they're Infantry.

I'm sorry I don't have the language skills to explain why it scares the hell out of me but the lines shouldn't be blurred. There should be a clear distinction between Military and Civil Authorities.

And please note that I haven't said one word about gear. Except to say that I don't believe that you should have anything that I can't buy at my local gun store.

[jnc36rcpd]

Cypher, perhaps we should save the concern about LEOSA and magazine capacities and fully automatic weapons for another thread. I will comment, however, that most officers, apart from command officials appointed by Democratic elected officials, are generally in favor of citizens' right to carry. That said....

Can you point to agencies that routinely police in camo gear? I don't know of any. Some tactical teams may wear such uniforms. I see a need for its availability for rural and woodland operations. I also know some agencies grabbed such uniforms up for training because it was cheap and practical. While I prefer more traditional colors for most tactical uniforms, I see some argument that every idiot who shoots up a school, church, or doghouse seems to be wearing black, but few are wearing specific camo uniforms.

Again, I would ask for examples of agencies wearing uniforms to imitate the military. You may have knowledge or experience that I do not.

[Cypher]

Cypher, perhaps we should save the concern about LEOSA and magazine capacities and fully automatic weapons for another thread. I will comment, however, that most officers, apart from command officials appointed by Democratic elected officials, are generally in favor of citizens' right to carry. That said....

The specific question was asked "What gear do you objected to the police carrying?"

I answered.

Can you point to agencies that routinely police in camo gear? I don't know of any. Some tactical teams may wear such uniforms. I see a need for its availability for rural and woodland operations. I also know some agencies grabbed such uniforms up for training because it was cheap and practical. While I prefer more traditional colors for most tactical uniforms, I see some argument that every idiot who shoots up a school, church, or doghouse seems to be wearing black, but few are wearing specific camo uniforms.

Again, I would ask for examples of agencies wearing uniforms to imitate the military. You may have knowledge or experience that I do not.

First of all I want to clarify that when I use the word literally I mean it in the literal sense of the word. As in the CSPD TAC team literally wears ACU's. Maybe they don't "police" in those uniforms but they shouldn't be kicking in your door wearing them either.

I am sorry maybe I'm counting angels dancing on the head of a pin but just as a matter of principle civilian cops should not be wearing LITERAL military uniforms.

Again I wish I had the language skills to express this perfectly but if you start dressing your cops like soldiers pretty soon you're going to start using your cops like soldiers and your cops are going to start thinking they are soldiers.

One of the best police style uniforms I've ever seen (in my uneducated opinion) was a sheriff's department that I saw on C.O.P.S. it looked like the old OG 107s.

It was a practical uniform. It looked neat and professional but it also looked like he could fight in it if he had to.

But again in my opinion civilian police should not be walking around in army uniforms and they shouldn't be driving through civilian neighborhoods in up armored Humvees with a machine gunner in the turret (Boston Marathon bombing)

I have friends that are cops. One of them was actually the first cop through the door at the Westroads Mall mass shooting. He's a great guy but when I hear him using terms like "Warfighter" to describe civilian cops I fucking cringe.

[BehindBlueI's]

There's multiple threads on LEOSA and this isn't one of them.

Reminder of LE subforum rules:

2. We like to think of everybody on PF.com being on the same side. We are all good guys here, whether we wear a badge or not. Anybody who forgets that and starts to post a bunch of divisive drivel is going to be shown the door. There's no us vs. them here. Policing presents some unique problems and concerns, especially to those who are charged with training and equipping police officers to deal with the worst dregs of society. There is an abundance of bad men walking around and breathing free air. The police ultimately have to deal with these dirtbags...but those dirtbags are victimizing somebody without LE credentials before 911 ever gets called. Those dirtbags are the enemy. The rest of us are concerned with defending ourselves effectively without ending up in jail or sued into poverty. This forum is about helping disseminate information that helps the good guys...regardless of profession...achieve that end.

[Le Français]

By that reasoning I should be able to carry a gun everywhere you can.

LEOSA has nothing to do with Public Safety it's about officer safety. It's so that if you run in to Joe's schmoe that you put in jail 12 years ago in New York City you can have a gun to protect herself with but if I was the witness whose testimony actually convicted Joe? Sucks to be me.

By creating a class of special rights for Agents Of The State the government ensures that at least a portion of law enforcement will support The State's efforts to disarm the citizenry.

"There's no reason for you to protest this law Officer Malloy, after all you're exempt (until everyone else is disarmed then we're coming for your guns too.)"

The Founder's intent was that the citizenry be able to maintain parity with the government or at least some semblance thereof.

I'm a law-abiding citizen is the world really that much more dangerous of a place if I have a 17 round magazine as opposed to a 15-round magazine? Is your job really that much more dangerous if I have a select fire M16 instead of a select fire AR-15? Is it really a threat to officer safety if I drive from Colorado Springs to Omaha with my concealed handgun? (Colorado and Nebraska have reciprocosity) is Colorado really made safer because they won't recognize a non-resident Utah handgun permit?

Because you know criminals are going to get that shit if they want it so why would you support laws that only affect the ability of the law-abiding to defend themselves?

Just curious what state are you in?

On the topic of the thread, and regarding your concerns about LE dressed in camouflage in Colorado Springs: I don’t have local knowledge, but it may well be that a tactical team with responsibilities in town also has responsibilities (due to jurisdiction or mutual aid agreements) in surrounding rural/wilderness areas, and that may have been a factor in uniform selection.

As for your other points, I don’t agree that we should impose further restrictions on CC, which is what you’re advocating. More freedom would be optimal; less freedom is not a worthy goal.

Presently, I’m in Texas.

[Sammy1]

Quote "But again in my opinion civilian police should not be walking around in army uniforms and they shouldn't be driving through civilian neighborhoods in up armored Humvees with a machine gunner in the turret (Boston Marathon bombing)[/QUOTE]

I was working during the Watertown search, on the radio. You have no idea what was going on.

Quote "I have friends that are cops. One of them was actually the first cop through the door at the Westroads Mall mass shooting. He's a great guy but when I hear him using terms like "Warfighter" to describe civilian cops I fucking cringe.[/QUOTE]

Warfighter refers to a state of mind. With the violence now days and active shooter training we are expected to run to the gunfire and perform accordingly. In the past there have been people who are LE who took the fire exam, applied to the DPW and took the police exam. They took the first job offer and are now LE. These aren't necessarily the people you can motivate to run down an active shooter or kick in a door where a violent domestic is occurring. LE, now, is expected to be much more than the friendly beat cop that waves to you downtown as he's counting down the clock on his retirement.

[Erick Gelhaus]

I made myself very clear a civilian should not be running around and what is LITERALLY a military uniform. I want to be clear I'm not talking about an ACU "patterned" uniform Why do you need desert or woodland camouflage in downtown Colorado Springs?

And please note that I haven't said one word about gear. Except to say that I don't believe that you should have anything that I can't buy at my local gun store.

Oh, you don't like cops wearing camouflage? I agreed with you on that; absent certain very limited & specific circumstances. How often are patrol officers, street cops in your town wearing camouflage on patrol?

[Zincwarrior]

A new uniform, for your consideration:


Alternatively, for Texas LEO, this is clearly preferred: