HR 4789 Introduced--Would Allow Fed LE to Purchase Retired Service Handgun

[Hambo]

oh my god the idea of the CMP getting a bunch of 50s and 60s era k-frames in good mechanical condition gets my dick hard.

You're not the only one.

[echo5charlie]

Yes, I'm talking about the Check-Mate magazines that even Check-Mate said were a shit combination for what the Army was asking, but the Army insisted on them anyway.
You're the first person I've encountered saying they were later on - every other date reference for those mags I've seen indicated they were part of a ramp-up program because Beretta couldn't provide enough mags for the Gulf War effort, which led to those mags, which led to lots of issues re:sand, which led to 1911's being re-issued in some elements, but the contract was the contract so they kept making those same shitty magazines deep into the 90's if not later.

All I know is those magazines are all over the place to this day, and I can't remember a time when I saw an issued M9 malfunction and one of those crappy old Check-Mate magazines *wasn't* in the magwell. It wasn't *always* the cause of the malfunction, but it was a very common failure point.

A shitload of Mec-Gar 18's and new springs would completely turn around the existing M9's in circulation. But I suppose if I'm going to dream that big, may as well dream for Langdon TJIAB's for each along with Wilson G10 grips and Les Pepperoni rear sights, too.

I am only aware of Check-Mate having a .mil contract for M9 mags dating back to 2000. Maybe @JonInWA can shed some light?

Of note, I have experienced zero issues with the heavy phosphate CMI mags, but this was all in State-side use. Obviously mileage varies between our experiences but I'd never trust the suspect CMI mags to anything but range use, regardless.

[echo5charlie]

On pool magazines - yes, I've been living that struggle on shitty pool magazines for my entire Army career. The M16/M4 magazine bins at my old unit were maybe 20% tan follower newer mags, the rest were a 50/50 mix of green and black follower mags. I was threated with a statement of charges when I destroyed a clearly malfunctioning magazine that caused repeated stoppages on a qual range. That's just how the game works.
M9 magazines suffer the same, except there's absolutely no excess magazines so all I can do is mark the bad ones and tell guys to avoid using those mags for qualifications.



Having been the M9 instructor/qual range NCOIC for my previous unit for several years, I could speak for days on the lack of effective handgun instruction in the Army. Most Soldiers need additional instruction on proper grip, manipulation, holstering/reholstering, etc. Nevermind actually getting to the marksmanship part!

I've lost count of the moments during M9 instruction that could have been made a (screams internally) meme if I'd taken a picture. No shortage of old 11B's, 19D's, etc that I've had on a range that had massive training scars from simply never getting good handgun instruction. It took one grizzled, four-deployment SFC a chance to watch ME shoot to convince him that his cup-and-saucer grip needed to go.

The Army by and large treats pistols as a talismanic badge of being too important to be bothered with a weapon system. Which really bugs the hell out of me, but I'll never be in a position to change that.

That all said - my reading and learning on this forum improved both my own pistol skills and also my ability to teach proper pistol skills. There's at least a hundred Soldiers out there that shot a lot better on their M9 qual because of this forum, and left that range with much better and safer pistol handling skills too.

Your unit is fucked up. Where the hell is your SAMG?

[GardoneVT]

That all said - my reading and learning on this forum improved both my own pistol skills and also my ability to teach proper pistol skills. There's at least a hundred Soldiers out there that shot a lot better on their M9 qual because of this forum, and left that range with much better and safer pistol handling skills too.

Seeing two members of my Air Force finance unit ship out with ZERO pistol time promoted me to get serious about handgun shooting. After watching Big Blue put a cultural sensitivity PowerPoint ahead in priority of handgun training , I figured Uncle Sam didn’t give a shit if I knew how to shoot and I’d best act on the matter.

[JRB]

Your unit is fucked up. Where the hell is your SAMG?

This is the Reserve, we don't have SAMG's - these are all support units. Possible exception being the NM Air Guard Rotor wing Aviator guys I ran through on their shiny new M4A1's and M9's a couple years back they were surprisingly cool dudes.

The absolute scariest range I ever ran was a medical unit full of doctors and nurses and what not. Many had never handled an M9 anywhere except for the ranges. On many I had to give up everything else to focus only on safety and getting them qualified.

I'd love to get SAMG school, but it's a struggle to even get my NCOES schools.
LOTS of slots and funding for UPL/SHARP/EO classes though!

[RJflyer]

Seeing two members of my Air Force finance unit ship out with ZERO pistol time promoted me to get serious about handgun shooting. After watching Big Blue put a cultural sensitivity PowerPoint ahead in priority of handgun training , I figured Uncle Sam didn’t give a shit if I knew how to shoot and I’d best act on the matter.

This thread has already drifted so far off topic...so what the hell. You figured right: Uncle Sam couldn't care less whether Air Force support personnel know how to use the M9s they're issued for deployments. I've been receiving the Air Force's BS handgun training since 2010...its pathetic. So pathetic, in fact, that it's obviously in place solely to check a box in the member's mobility folder, thus enabling that person to fill a deployment line. In my personal opinion, it's shameful. If we're not going to provide these people legitimate training to rely on in a deadly force encounter, then why issue them a firearm in the first place?

Cue Devil's Advocate: From a HAF bean counter's perspective...where's the greater liability? How likely is it that an 18 year old female USAF finance troop will actually face a threat necessitating the use of her issued M9 overseas? It's certainly possible (reference Apr 2011 Green-on-Blue at Kabul IAP). But it's not likely. Compare that to the likelihood the same 18 year old female USAF finance troop will face a sexual assault from someone in her own unit. The reality is that the latter situation is FAR more likely. Thus, the USAF devotes its resources to that problem set. Its great from the macro bean counting perspective. But for the unfortunate kid who has to actually fire his/her M9 in anger one day, its a damned shame.

[GardoneVT]

This thread has already drifted so far off topic...so what the hell. You figured right: Uncle Sam couldn't care less whether Air Force support personnel know how to use the M9s they're issued for deployments. I've been receiving the Air Force's BS handgun training since 2010...its pathetic. So pathetic, in fact, that it's obviously in place solely to check a box in the member's mobility folder, thus enabling that person to fill a deployment line. In my personal opinion, it's shameful. If we're not going to provide these people legitimate training to rely on in a deadly force encounter, then why issue them a firearm in the first place?

Cue Devil's Advocate: From a HAF bean counter's perspective...where's the greater liability? How likely is it that an 18 year old female USAF finance troop will actually face a threat necessitating the use of her issued M9 overseas? It's certainly possible (reference Apr 2011 Green-on-Blue at Kabul IAP). But it's not likely. Compare that to the likelihood the same 18 year old female USAF finance troop will face a sexual assault from someone in her own unit. The reality is that the latter situation is FAR more likely. Thus, the USAF devotes its resources to that problem set. Its great from the macro bean counting perspective. But for the unfortunate kid who has to actually fire his/her M9 in anger one day, its a damned shame.

Well, contrary to what the recruiters might say deployed Finance isn’t necessarily a cush job. Due to fiduciary regs and the fact most overseas contractors don’t take MasterCard, Finance airmen have to escort cash payments. Basically we’re a Brinks truck, except in downtown Bagram instead of Detroit. Force protection can’t legally touch the money (love “fiduciary responsibility”) , so when a contractor needs a $50k payment we have to cart it out there.

The notion of sending NCOs through a combat zone with a 6’ X 10’ load of money (since the enemy doesn’t already have enough reason to kill you, let’s add a cash incentive!) and a rusty M9 + zero gun time is so infuriating even now my eye twitches at the notion.

[L-2]

What's "SAMG" mean?

[echo5charlie]

What's "SAMG" mean?

Small Arms Master Gunner

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Small_arms_master_gunner

This was some of the best training I ever received in my .mil career.

[spence]

I don't know what the atmosphere is today as I really haven't paid a lot of attention since I got out. When we were in Iraq in 06-07, and prior to that, everybody got repurposed to ground units. We were an FA unit pounding sand just like everybody else. There were a helluva lot of non combat arms units running convoys, and I still feel for a lot of those folks because they got blown up all the freaking time.

The scariest thing I ever remember was the short time we were running gates in and out of our FOB was a few military convoys rolling through (most were military escort with third country nationals driving the goods, so it was somewhat unusual to see all military/US contracted personnel driving trucks) with Air Force personnel driving, not wearing their body armor, and their rifles may not have even been loaded. I couldn't even begin to guess what kind of MOS they'd send to the desert to drive trucks.

Military weapons training is generally a joke to non infantry units. I spent nearly six months with an M16A2, and got issued an M4 just a couple weeks before we shipped. Only got to zero it. Got issued a 203 in country. Thank the Lord I didn't have to use my rifle before we got back to a zero range again, I would've been more of a liability.