Would you stay on a volunteer security team like this?

[UNM1136]

The last active shooter training I did for a church was required by their insurance company...

I still had guys from the security team telling me that their knife throwing ability was such that they didn't need guns....I also had concerned volunteers that did not realize the breadth and depth of what they volunteered for.

At my church, I am the dude that don't hug...the dude that occasionally gets told that his shirt rode up over his piece. And likely the only dude in the joint that has the ability to solve problems ballistically. Given the small congregation the church and I seem to be OK with that.

pat

To be fair, the guy who got me invited sat in the back of the classroom videoing the training. He is a hard eyed motherfucker that spent 20 years in the Air Force, then came to me when he nearly failed out of the state academy for firearms proficiency... he went on to take my advice and pass the state qual with a glock. Only to switch to a 1911at my recommedation. Then he switched to a DA/SA Sig 226...and followed my dry fire instructions to the letter and regularly shoots high 90s with that pistol. His wife seemed just as hard....

pat

[nalesq]

I'd feel safer if our team had knives instead of guns.

There is a crusty old retired USAF colonel at my church who carries fairly regularly, but doesn’t believe in carrying with a round in the chamber. I don’t want to besmirch him even anonymously, because he is an exemplary man of God and a great American who served our country well by preparing for nuclear combat, toe to toe with the Russkies. But a pistol is not a B-52, and after eventually seeing his abysmal handling and marksmanship skills, my hope is that if there must ever be a gunfight in my church, he is unable to get a round in the chamber in time to join in.


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[Cypher]

This is just my opinion based on my experience in three different churches.

From the time I started going to church I was taught that if you're going to be a member of the congregation you should serve somewhere.

There are some things that I think my church does really well. There is always a medical professional on standby during every service, usually it's a registered nurse.

Almost everybody that serves at the church wears a distinctive uniform. So you can tell at a glance that person's supposed to be here.

Child care providers wear green aprons Child Care helpers wear red aprons. The people that work in the cafe wear a black shirt that says Cafe staff. Security wears a black shirt that says Security Ministry and so on. Everybody wears a photo ID that has their name and what ministry they're a part of on it.

The children's ministry has specific protocols about signing children in and signing children out. Security goes around the building before service and makes sure that all the exterior doors except the public entrances are locked and then 15 minutes after service starts they lock all the public entrances except for the main entrance. There's also somebody that drives around during service in a distinctly marked vehicle with a whoopee light on top as a visual deterrent to people going through and breaking into cars during service. I think all of those are good basic steps to take and none of them involve a gun.

I think most of the problems stem from the fact that the church is using volunteers. They're not drawing pay for what they're doing. The church has no real authority over them, except to ask them not to serve anymore. If they're supposed to serve at a given service and something comes up they just don't show up.

As a result even though our church has probably about eight thousand people in regular attendance we have between 40 and 50 people on the security rosterat any time. Of that maybe half of them are actually regular attendees at our church. So on any given Sunday we might have four people maybe five doing security covering a congregation of two to three thousand people.

As far as the training the Church offers I think it's good. The company that provides the trainer has a good reputation in Colorado Springs. The problem is that a lot of people in the Security Ministry don't avail themselves of the training. They show up twice a year to qualify and that's it. I've seen a couple people that show up, do the qualification which is always the first thing that they do and then leave. I personally think that's stupid because it cost 12 bucks to get into the range. So you might as well get something for your money.

Another problem that I see is people that I call loose cannons. I've talked about this guy before, he wasupposed to be keeping an eye on the second floor but I found him walking through the parking lot because that's what God told him to do and he told me if I didn't like it I could stuff it. I'm just another volunteer what am I supposed to do?

Another part of the loose cannon issue IMO is people in other Ministries that I know have been asked not to carry a gun while they're performing their duties for that Ministry and they do it anyway.

Now citizens who happen to be concealed carrying in church is one thing but in my opinion if you're serving in a ministry there has to be a response plan and everybody has to play by the rules.

One day we had a training session where the head of our AV department showed up to train with us and he showed up wearing a competition rig. I mean that wasn't his concealed carry set up and I'm positive that's not what he's going to be wearing if something happens in church. It's none of my business but there are quite a few people in our AV Department who carry I suspect they have an active shooter plan in place that the security team knows nothing about.

So those are just some of the issues that I am aware of but I'm not sure what a solution would be.

New Life Church is a BIG church the last number I heard was that between 20 and 25,000 people are in regular attendance at that church. They can afford to hire actual, professional, bodyguards for their pastor
and the last thing I heard is that they do. They also have a big enough pool to draw from that almost everybody on their safety team is POST certified or somebody that they've vetted and they know is not a flake.
They also have a top-notch legal team and I am certain they have a very thorough Insurance rider on their Security Ministry.

There are a couple of other churches in town that hired G4S to provide security for them. The guards are being paid. The guards have a schedule. You know that on Sunday morning you're going to have seven armed guards arriving at your church an hour and a half before service. They're all going to be in uniform. They're all going to be licensed. They're there because it's their job and they're going to follow the security protocols that the church has instituted and they also have a roving guard doing a patrol of the church after hours to make sure that everything is locked up. But not every church is that big and not every church can do that.

The last thing that I have to say and I'm not sure how to frame it is that we're talking about about a church. So there has to be, at least to some degree, a belief that no matter what we do the outcome is ultimately in God's hands and that has to play some part in the church's planning for an event

[BN]

. I keep having my conscience nag me that the team's lack of training by knowledgeable people means I should probably not be on the team.

the leader (whose training only consists of a 2 day James Yeager handgun course...

How does God usually speak to you? I would walk away.

[Moylan]

The main leader of my team has only taken a class taught by James Yeager, and he seems to take what James says as gospel.

If you can manage to do it in a non-demeaning way, maybe you can get the team leader to email Yeager and ask him a few questions. Like "James, considering that I've taken your Fighting Pistol class as my only formal firearms training, am I qualified to lead a church security team? Am I qualified to teach others to serve on a church security team? What should I do to become more qualified in these areas?"

[El Cid]

I still had guys from the security team telling me that their knife throwing ability was such that they didn't need guns....

pat

Tell them samurai swords are approved. Then they can’t throw anything and the shooter will target them first giving the rest of the team time to react.

The last thing that I have to say and I'm not sure how to frame it is that we're talking about about a church. So there has to be, at least to some degree, a belief that no matter what we do the outcome is ultimately in God's hands and that has to play some part in the church's planning for an event

Um no. Just no.

[Cypher]

Um no. Just no.

Read your Bible

Proverbs 21:31


A horse is prepared for the day of battle, but victory comes from the LORD.

[willie]

If a church is large enough to require an armed security team, then it should pass the collection plate for this purpose. And why must all team members be armed? Can a small number of persons not be enlisted to be observers who have radios to contact the armed group? Churches are social systems. Larger ones are as complex as any other organization where people meet and interact according to established procedure. Informal authority can and might often over ride formal authority. Ego's rule. God has nothing to do with it.

[VT1032]

Nothing wrong with the security team of me, myself, and I, as long as that's also your protective audience (to include family members as well, obviously).

Already been said, but legal authority, liability, and medical coverage should be the starting point for this discussion, not an afterthought. I love shooting, but there is so much more that goes into armed security then shooting, and it's really things that someone without a law enforcement or (relevant) military background probably isn't thinking about unless they have taken extensive training from qualified instructors. It sounds like you may be starting down that training path, but are a long way from the finish line, so in all reality, you probably aren't the right person to lead the team either. You have enough experience to know that you don't have nearly enough experience, and neither does the guy currently leading the team. It doesn't sound like he has had that realization.

If paul blart, commander in chief of church security can't see that, maybe a discussion with your pastor is in order about the possible legal and liability ramifications of a security team with that mentality and lack of training. A bad shoot by one of the security team could financially end a smaller church if it was done under the auspices of "church security". What happens when mall commando accidentally shoots one of his trainees in the leg while demonstrating something he is totally unqualified to demonstrate? Was it under the auspices of church security and is the church on the hook? Hell, actual law enforcement agencies, where the officers at least have a baseline of real training, have training accidents all the time. The Florida citizens academy where an officer shot and killed a senior citizen with a j-frame he thought was loaded with blanks comes to mind. To be honest, unless a security team is run to the professional level described by lwt16 (which is exceedingly rare), I think they are more of a liability than an asset, and the simple reality is that if your congregation isn't bordering on megachurch status, they probably can't support and maintain a security team as he describes.

[willie]

People on church trips get killed in vehicle accidents. I worked at a juvenile rehab where one kid killed another before getting in a van to go to church. The employees were too incompetent to see it coming and prevent it. Youth pastors, choir directors, and preachers fuck children. God has nothing to do with it. Training and planning are everything. My mama always said that God helps those who help themselves. Train and plan.