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Thread: Would you stay on a volunteer security team like this?

  1. #11
    Site Supporter Trooper224's Avatar
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    The problem with church security teams is a typical one: give someone a hammer and every problem looks like a nail. Right before I retired, my pastor approached me with thoughts on church security. I gave the elders a few simple things they could do to improve the buildings security and harden the area. (none of which involved firearms) None of these things would be intrusive and it would all be free and of course, none of it has been done. I also advised my pastor that he should run those thoughts by the churches governing body, since we're talking about increased liability for the church, as well as insurance issues. It isn't as simple as picking a few friends of Jesus to pack heat. So far, I haven't been approached again and I'm relieved. Every Sunday, I sit in the back at the end of a pew, where I can observed the entrance and exits and keep a visual on the hallways. I'm satisfied with that.

    Just to play devil's advocate, (see what I did there?) could your own attitude be a roadblock to the teams receptiveness? Please understand, I'm not trying to be rude, but your level of training and experience isn't extensive either. You don't know what you don't know. Is it possible that you're coming off like a timmie tactical know it all? Just something to think about.
    We may lose and we may win, but we will never be here again.......

  2. #12

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    Thank you for your ideas! You've all been a big help!

    That's totally true that I may be coming off as a know-it-all to the leaders of the team. I am not nearly as experienced in life as many of them are. I am 37 and most of the leaders have children who are close to my age.

    My main thought that pushed me to ask your opinions was the training session in a couple of days, and thinking about how I or someone could be shot by a negligent newby. I was reading a thread on here about a James Yeager class saying how even instructors with a lot of experience do foolish things. The main leader of my team has only taken a class taught by James Yeager, and he seems to take what James says as gospel. Just a little too immature of an attitude. So that kind of mindset concerns me. I think that really stands out as showing how this leader just doesn't know what he doesn't know. This leader leans toward the mall-ninja side, and the previous leader (who goes to another church now) said he's just a little too tactical or something.
    Last edited by Alex8056; 10-25-2019 at 07:36 PM.

  3. #13
    Site Supporter Trooper224's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alex8056 View Post
    Thank you for your ideas! You've all been a big help!

    That's totally true that I may be coming off as a know-it-all to the leaders of the team. I am not nearly as experienced in life as many of them are. I am 37 and most of the leaders have children who are close to my age.

    My main thought that pushed me to ask your opinions was the training session in a couple of days, and thinking about how I or someone could be shot by a negligent newby. I was reading a thread on here about a James Yeager class saying how even instructors with a lot of experience do foolish things. The main leader of my team has only taken a class taught by James Yeager, and he seems to take what James says as gospel. Just a little too immature of an attitude. So that kind of mindset concerns me. I think that really stands out as showing how this leader just doesn't know what he doesn't know. This leader leans toward the mall-ninja side, and the previous leader (who goes to another church now) said he's just a little too tactical or something.
    Given this, it's likely you've reached an impasse involving his ego. You won't get anywhere. Walk away.

    I experienced a similar thing at a church we attended when we first moved to town. I was introduced to the head of the church security team, who happened to be a city cop. (small suburban agency outside a metro area) When someone informed him I was a State Trooper with SWAT experience, it immediately became apparent that his ego was triggered and I'd get nowhere. I was never contacted and I never bothered to follow up. In the end, that church wound up being a bag of smashed assholes anyway and we relocated.
    We may lose and we may win, but we will never be here again.......

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alex8056 View Post
    Bottom line up front: Would you stay on a volunteer armed church security team like mine?
    I'm about to re-edit my whole response.

    This is a really complicated answer for me because there are so many different levels here based on my beliefs.

    The first thing that I would have to evaluate is am I sure that this is a church that God called me to be in and second is this the ministry in that church that he called me to serve in.

    And honestly, if the answer to both those questions is yes then you have to stick it out and you have to work within the framework that God has provided you. Remember Joseph spending 13 years in prison and his entire adult life as a slave was part of God's plan.

    I spent five years serving on my church's security team. Some of the guys that I served with really knew their stuff. Some of them were active duty military some were cops and some were flakes.

    Like the guy that left his post roving the second floor and went outside to walk around the parking lot because "God told him to"

    I had to do the best I could in that framework without trying to tell the other people how they should do it.

    My biggest concern would be does your church have an insurance Rider covering the security team? As a security team member are you covered under their legal liability insurance?
    Last edited by Cypher; 10-25-2019 at 08:35 PM.

  5. #15
    The first three thoughts that went through my head when I heard "volunteer armed church security" were:

    1) What kind of written agreement is in place between you and the church to indemnify you and cover your legal fees in the case of a criminal or civil case?

    2) What are the laws in your state regarding armed security, and are you running afoul of them?

    3) None of this would matter to me because I'd rather slam my balls in a car door than be on an armed, volunteer security team.
    I was into 10mm Auto before it sold out and went mainstream, but these days I'm here for the revolver and epidemiology information.

  6. #16
    As always on PF, you have already received some of the best advice you'll get anywhere. My purpose in responding is to provide the perspective of someone who has spent more than 30 years as a paid Church Musician, having served in Ministry and on Church staffs in almost every major mainline denomination in the United States. Please feel free to discard if it doesn't suit your situation.

    In addition to the concerns expressed regarding the legal and tactical issues, it seems to me that the real issue is with the Church leadership, i.e. the Pastor. As I read through your comments, and perhaps I am reading things into, it sounds like a very typical problem in many Churches, and that is that ministries are started, and exist and run, for the benefit of those serving in the Ministry, rather than the Ministry existing to serve the congregation. My guess is that your Pastor did not have the courage to say no to this individual, or just bought the first energetic guy that came along wanting to do this. Ministries should be run by folks who are humbly compelled to (almost) reluctantly serve...not because they want to be the star singer, the star orator, or, in this case, the local gunfighting legend.

    If I have this wrong, my apologies, but I have seen this "waaaayyy yonder" too many times during my Church career, and Ministries run by "personalities" rarely last long or end well.

    As with the others, I would respectfully recommend you find another Ministry in your Church which can better make use of your desire to serve.

  7. #17
    Gucci gear, Walmart skill Darth_Uno's Avatar
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    I’d ask myself, is this a legitimate ministry that I truly feel called to do? Or am I, even for valid reasons, just doing it because I want to. Then I’d ask myself if they’d be fine without me. They probably would, and God is likely not specifically telling you “Hey, go be on the security team”.

    Church security is usually a clusterfudge anyway. It starts with the best of intentions. Then half the people take it too seriously, half the people don’t take it seriously at all, and anyone who knows enough to be effective wants no part of it for the first two reasons.

    I would know. I’m head of security.
    Last edited by Darth_Uno; 10-25-2019 at 11:11 PM.

  8. #18
    Reading this, it sounds like the competence and confidence are out of balance with your church's team. You are not likely to change that, and you yourself do not have the background or experience to do so.

    They do not want to change, they simply want (and currently have) an echo chamber, where they reassure themselves that they are ready to slay evil doers and save the weak and innocent lambs.

    Follow the advice given and walk away.

    The best thing to have happen is to let nature run its course.

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darth_Uno View Post
    God is likely not specifically telling you “Hey, go be on the security team”.
    I'm not saying that God came down in a burning bush and told the OP "Thus speaketh The Lord God, go be on the security team." But I do believe that God can call somebody to be involved in a specific Ministry the same way He calls some people to be Pastors. It's not something I can explain and it's not something I'm going to try to explain beyond saying it's just a little nudge that He puts in your heart.

    Having said all that, I'm going to say again that if the OP is absolutely positive that security is the ministry that God nudged his heart about then he needs to think long and hard before ignoring that.

    This is purely religious advice and I understand it's outside the scope of this forum so feel free to take it or leave it as you see fit
    Last edited by Cypher; 10-26-2019 at 12:54 AM.

  10. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Alex8056 View Post
    Bottom line up front: Would you stay on a volunteer armed church security team like mine, where the team leaders don't appear to be as educated as I am?


    They appear to be unreceptive to my input regarding what the team should be encouraged to do to get better. All they seem to be concerned with regarding training is trying to hit a target better. They seem to be unaware of legal, or any other areas related to thinking and judgement about self-defense.

    I really want to help the church. Any other volunteer team would be okay to just barely get by, but being armed with dealdy weapons changes things.

    I don't believe the safety team leadership has a great interest in reading/learning about self defense with a firearms, like I do. I don't think they really have read much more than what was in their ccw class.

    One other issue is that the church safety team will have a live-fire training session in a couple of days (they try to have one yearly at least), and I don't feel comfortable having the leader (whose training only consists of a 2 day James Yeager handgun course... I know what you will say about him, haha) lead what amounts to impersonating an instructor in a basic pistol class, with the team lined up on a firing line taking turns shooting at targets. I don't think he has any business leading that because he has no training in how to run a safe range, he apears to just knows the 4 safety rules, and I think he is very over-confiednt.

    Would you please weigh in on what you would do under the circumstances?
    From what you have typed I think you already know the answer to the questions you have posed.

    I will tell you that I am a member/trainer of my church's security team and we have an extensive budget, SOP manual, training, hardware, etc that is above and beyond what most churches are blessed with......to the tune of low to mid five figures for security training and equipment alone. 5k membership in the church with an operating budget of high seven figures.....so I am coming from that sort of experience.

    Ours has a firearms focus.....but it's not the sole nor the main focus. We do have annual qualifications (which are being toughened up in 2020) as well as ammunition provided to the security members as well as an initial gear stipend once a trainee completes six months of training. I would estimate that the actual shooting part (the part that your team seems to focus 90-100 percent of their time to) is more like 10-20 percent of our team's focus.

    Our trainees are subjected to biblical use of force classes, civil tort/criminal law classes, simulation training, scenario training, NRA classes dealing with CCW, first aid training, radio procedure training, etc. Our SOP manual is on revision 5 or 6 IIRC and we have buy in from church leadership as well as written assurance of legal protections from our insurance provider. We also do quarterly training which runs the gamut from de-escalation techniques, children's areas security, low light, room clearing, weather procedures, etc.

    I type all of that to tell you that if YOUR team isn't doing some of this in addition to static target shooting then you probably need to steer clear of it.

    Then.......there is the church politics and associated drama with those that are in a leadership position (such as your lead guy) who think they have it all sorted out and are usually HIGHLY resistant to being told they are hosing something or everything up.

    I get that smaller churches don't have large budgets and even those that do are sometimes resistant to sharing their blessings with security. It's that thing that nobody wants to pay for.......until some idiot comes into the sanctuary with a long gun intent on doing harm. Then, and only then, do the funds seem crucial to give to that part of the church.

    The team I am part of has several retired LEOs, tons of military/former military, a couple of Feds, and some average guys/gals from the private sector. We have a surprisingly high washout rate for a trainee as well..........and so far.......nobody has failed the shooting part except for one guy that just couldn't follow commands and was booted for safety reasons. Most people drop out due to the commitment and time the six month training program takes or they decide that it's just not for them after all.

    It's good that you want to serve at the church.......and from what limited details you shared......I think you would probably be a better servant to some other ministry at church. If asked why, be honest but not unkind.

    As far as your upcoming training session, I can tell you that when I run live fire quals or any sort of live fire training clinic, I start out with a safety briefing that includes medical procedures, on site trauma kits and other med supplies, with at least one person designated to drive to our local trauma center with a fully gassed vehicle should the need arise. If your training session doesn't include anything but some good old boys standing around gossiping........well....that right there is a good indicator of where you are at as a team. I also have an explanation of the four rules as well as how anyone on range can call a cease fire should I do something hosed up. I hold myself accountable right off the bat.......and highly encourage feedback or suggestions to improve. Safety first......the rest will be a distant second to safety.

    One other thing: my team has a BUNCH of type A's and some of the meetings can get somewhat testy. But I have found that most if not all of us are quick to be humble and kind to one another when it comes to security matters. If your team is not of the same mentality then I'd not be a part of it.

    PM me if you feel you need to. I have been to some specialized church security training that I could recommend highly for you if you do stay in the team and try to enlighten those that are resistant to change.

    Regards.

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