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Thread: Would you stay on a volunteer security team like this?

  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cypher View Post

    The last thing that I have to say and I'm not sure how to frame it is that we're talking about about a church. So there has to be, at least to some degree, a belief that no matter what we do the outcome is ultimately in God's hands and that has to play some part in the church's planning for an event
    To support @El Cid here...

    God's response is unknowable to us....The belief that the outcome is ultimately in God's hands is the starting point, not a variable. Training, coordination, and insurance plans are there for US, not him. We drive a safe car by the rules of the road so as to do everything in our power to be successful, because that is in God's hands and within our sphere of control. We are not here to test God, and we have a very narrow ageeement that if we do x than yz will follow. And as a Christian I am not sure that I am abiding by the agreement, so I am all for availing myself of every possible advantage.

    Imagine explaining to a grieving mother that her child bled to death beacause of God's will. Imaginge trying to save the same child with a TQ. We don't (usually or often) rely on God to pull the ripcord on a parachute, or place a dead primer under the pin of an adversary's weapon. We train to avoid relying on God in those situations, and do the best we can. And then we have faith that He has a plan, even if it involves an outcome we don't like or can't understand.

    pat
    Last edited by UNM1136; 10-30-2019 at 11:23 AM.

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by UNM1136 View Post
    To support @El Cid here...

    God's response is unknowable to us....The belief that the outcome is ultimately in God's hands is the starting point, not a variable. Training, coordination, and insurance plans are there for US, not him. We drive a safe car by the rules of the road so as to do everything in our power to be successful, because that is in God's hands and within our sphere of control. We are not here to test God, and we have a very narrow ageeement that if we do x than yz will follow. And as a Christian I am not sure that I am abiding by the agreement, so I am all for availing myself of every possible advantage.

    Imagine explaining to a grieving mother that her child bled to death beacause of God's will. Imaginge trying to save the same child with a TQ. We don't (usually or often) rely on God to pull the ripcord on a parachute, or place a dead primer under the pin of an adversary's weapon. We train to avoid relying on God in those situations, and do the best we can. And then we have faith that He has a plan, even if it involves an outcome we don't like or can't understand.

    pat
    I'm not going to get into a religious debate here but I never said or even implied that we do nothing and trust God. In fact you would have to deliberately take that paragraph out of context to arrive at that conclusion. I even prefaced that statement by saying I wasn't sure I was able to clearly explain my meaning.

    I thought I communicated very clearly that we should take every reasonable precaution but the outcome is still in God's hands.

    Quote Originally Posted by UNM1136 View Post
    Imagine explaining to a grieving mother that her child bled to death beacause of God's will. Imaginge trying to save the same child with a TQ. We don't (usually or often) rely on God to pull the ripcord on a parachute, or place a dead primer under the pin of an adversary's weapon. We train to avoid relying on God in those situations, and do the best we can. And then we have faith that He has a plan, even if it involves an outcome we don't like or can't understand.pat
    I find it interesting that in the beginning of this paragraph you talk about a child bleeding to death not being God's will but at the end you state that God has a plan even if it involves an outcome we don't like or can't understand.

    So which of those two options do you actually believe?

    Read The Hiding Place or a biography of Nate Saint then get back with me about trusting God when you don't like or understand his plan
    Last edited by Cypher; 10-30-2019 at 12:19 PM.

  3. #53
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    Whoah, dude... I have taken your side more often than not in discussions...I am not trying to portray your statement out of context, I am trying to clarify it. Sorry that I failed.If you cannot be clear, how can you blame me for trying to clarify? I was trying to support the mandate of this forum in the context you provided.

    To answer your question I believe both. I don't see it as either/or do nothing and the child bleeds to death or try to save her. I can do everything in my power and she still may die.. Yet not doing everything in my power is contrary to how God made me.

    If I misread you, I am truly sorry, and ask your fogiveness.

    I guess I need to bow out here, and not cause any more consternation.

    pat

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by UNM1136 View Post
    Whoah, dude... I have taken your side more often than not in discussions...I am not trying to portray your statement out of context, I am trying to clarify it. Sorry that I failed.If you cannot be clear, how can you blame me for trying to clarify? I was trying to support the mandate of this forum in the context you provided.

    To answer your question I believe both. I don't see it as either/or do nothing and the child bleeds to death or try to save her. I can do everything in my power and she still may die.. Yet not doing everything in my power is contrary to how God made me.

    If I misread you, I am truly sorry, and ask your fogiveness.

    I guess I need to bow out here, and not cause any more consternation.

    pat
    I want to apologize, because clearly I misread your post.

    I misunderstood what you were trying to say and I took it the wrong way. I sincerely apologize

  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cypher View Post
    I want to apologize, because clearly I misread your post.

    I misunderstood what you were trying to say and I took it the wrong way. I sincerely apologize
    No sweat, man!

    pat

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