Gun Show Duo.............

[Lex Luthier]

"This experience has caused me to opine that the PP series pistols are better guns in .32acp than .380acp. I was impressed by how smoothly the gun operated in this smaller caliber. I won't be shooting through any plate glass windows any time soom, but it's a nice addition to the "Ain't it cool?" section of my safe."

I have fired two PP series pistols in .32/7.65 - a 1938(?) PP that was lousy with WW II Waffenampts (but now belongs to a Rabbi!)
and a 1950s Manurhin PP. Truth be told, I preferred the Manurhin. It had the better trigger, by far.
The .380 variants are less comfortable, less controllable, less pleasant, and less accurate, in my hands, at least. I have never fired one made or imported after GCA '68.

The Beretta is dead gorgeous. That was a neat time in Italian design history. Do you know what that series of holes on the dust cover under the slide are for?

[Joe in PNG]

I’ve never been to a gun show for a few reasons which may best be encapsulated by your phrase goon fest, but thanks to posts like this with quality text and pix, I almost feel like I was looking over your shoulder while you shopped. Right on.

It's mostly My God It's Full Of Derp, but you can find some sweet deals.

Got my 92D Centurion for $300 at one.

[zeleny]

Before I discovered the Beretta I found something else that peaked my interest: a Manurhin produced Walther PP, in .32acp. "7.65mm, with a delivery like a brick through a plate glass window." Post WWII, Germany was allowed to rearm the Bundeswehr, but they weren't allowed to produced arms in Germany itself. As a result, Walther set up a plant in Haut-Rihn, Greater Est France known as Manufacture de Machines du Haut-Rhin, or Manurhin in abbreviated form. Not only were PP series pistols manufactured under the Manurhin banner, unfinished parts were shipped to Walther in Germany for finishing. Consequently, this is a case of "same but different". Manufactured in 1961, the pistol features the quality of an old Walther, but lacks the collector value due to the lack of the Walther banner on the slide. The upside is the substantially lower price. I'm not a Walther collector and don't plan on becoming one, so this cheaper sample of one is fine with me.

To posit a quibble, Manurhin in no way owes its existence to Walther. It is a toolmaker founded in 1919 in Mulhouse under the name Manufacture de machines du Haut-Rhin, abbreviated to Manurhin. In the wake of World War II, Manurhin started making small arms, beginning with licensed copies of Walther pistols. Initially, the the Walther plant was located Zella-Mehlis in Thuringia, Germany. As a result of Russian occupation of East Germany, Walther relocated to Ulm in Baden-Württemberg. While firearm manufacture was forbidden by the Allied powers, starting in 1952 Walther licensed the production of its rimfire Olympia target pistols to Hämmerli in Switzerland, that of its Model 2 bolt action and semiautomatic .22LR carbine to Beretta in Italy, and that of its PP, PPK, and P38 series pistols to Manurhin in France.

[zeleny]

At the eleventh hour I found the Beretta, so I let the PP lie. Still, I went home with it on my mind. So, after a strategic reconnoitering of Mrs. Awesome's good will, I returned to the show the next day and brought the PP home. It turned out to be a fine shooter as well. The slide tortures my hand as expected, but it will dump an eight round mag into a dime sized hole at ten yards. This experience has caused me to opine that the PP series pistols are better guns in .32acp than .380acp. I was impressed by how smoothly the gun operated in this smaller caliber. I won't be shooting through any plate glass windows any time soom, but it's a nice addition to the "Ain't it cool?" section of my safe.

Fragility is the main flaw of almost all centerfire straight blowback pistol designs. Julian Hatcher reported in the 1953 Gun Digest a 5,000 round endurance test administered by the U.S. Army around the end of WWII to a number of service autopistols. Only the Colt M1911A1 passed. The German P38 came in second with 10 malfunctions, one broken extractor, and 2 other parts replaced. Among the blowback pistols, including the Walther PP and PPK and the Mauser HSc, each had at least 36 malfunctions, with the PPK coming in the worst at 83. All of the blowback frames cracked before completing 5,000 rounds. The PP outlasted the rest, firing 4,142 rounds before cracking the frame.

By contrast, rimfire variants of Walther PP and PPK are built to run forever. Likewise those of Beretta 70 and its progeny.

[Trooper224]

"This experience has caused me to opine that the PP series pistols are better guns in .32acp than .380acp. I was impressed by how smoothly the gun operated in this smaller caliber. I won't be shooting through any plate glass windows any time soom, but it's a nice addition to the "Ain't it cool?" section of my safe."

I have fired two PP series pistols in .32/7.65 - a 1938(?) PP that was lousy with WW II Waffenampts (but now belongs to a Rabbi!)
and a 1950s Manurhin PP. Truth be told, I preferred the Manurhin. It had the better trigger, by far.
The .380 variants are less comfortable, less controllable, less pleasant, and less accurate, in my hands, at least. I have never fired one made or imported after GCA '68.

The Beretta is dead gorgeous. That was a neat time in Italian design history. Do you know what that series of holes on the dust cover under the slide are for?

No holes, just dots I used to obscure the serial number.

[Trooper224]

- the last one I seriously considered going to didn’t allow ccw (wasn’t in Portland, it was more Salem way ) and I’ve been led to believe, perhaps in error, that’s pretty common. Yeah no thanks, not checking my weapon, and also not gonna flout the policy. I also don’t want to spend the cover charge just to watch people, I’d go for gun stuff but I’ve never felt like I was missing out ammo or gear or weapon wise. So the odds of my attendance aren’t great, but who knows.

I go to gun shows specifically to acquire items like these. I can get plastic fantastics and AR-15's anywhere, anytime. I prefer to have the gun in hand before purchase, so I rarely do the on line thing except in rare cases. Guns like these don't show up on the shelf with any regularity around here. In fact, this is the first Beretta 70 I've seen here, ever. Lately, I've been looking for an older Beretta 84, with the round trigger guard and blued finish, but I was happily surprised to find the 70. I no longer go to shows just to browse and pass the time, it simply isn't worth the hassle. However, if I have money to spend and the timing's right I'll brave certain shows. This one is an "antique arms and gun show". So it's one of the better local ones for me.

[Drang]

No holes, just dots I used to obscure the serial number.

Bayou Renaissance Man: A serious warning about firearms security

[JRB]

What a fantastic score with that Model 70 - and great pics too!

In James Bond: Skyfall, there's a couple of mentions of the Beretta Model 70 never seen but allegedly carried under Sévérine's dress. After watching Skyfall with my now-wife, she asked what a Beretta 70 looked like, since she really likes her PX4 Compact.
I showed her, and she approved heartily, and decided that she needs me to find a nice Model 70 for her because she needs a 'little black dress gun'.

I don't deserve to be this lucky. I know.

[MattyD380]

Really cool guns. Nice find. I had a PP in 7.65 for a minute. It gave me some FTFs so I ditched it. I later learned that the extraction groove is somewhat different on .32 acp cases vs. 7.65 cases. So, I often wonder if that was the issue--I remember the jams coming from Winchester (i.e., .32) and not PPU (i.e., 7.65). But who knows for sure. Aside from that, the gun was pleasant to shoot and accurate. The PPK/S I had in .380 hammered my hand, but was very accurate and actually pretty reliable--aside from the fact it liked to drop mags (except the one it came with) while shooting.

I really enjoy the "point and click" accuracy of the blowback guns I've had. Very precise little shooters. I tend to think fixed barrel offers some real benefits in terms of inherent accuracy, low bore axis, etc. These days, my blowbacks of choice are an EG Mak and Sig P230. I enjoy shooting the Mak most, but the 230 is no slouch either. It rides in my glove box and it's my "always there even if I'm not carrying something else" gun. If you're not mad about not having a 9mm... they make nice, trim DA/SA carry guns.

[Half Moon]

Really cool guns. Nice find. I had a PP in 7.65 for a minute. It gave me some FTFs so I ditched it. I later learned that the extraction groove is somewhat different on .32 acp cases vs. 7.65 cases. So, I often wonder if that was the issue--I remember the jams coming from Winchester (i.e., .32) and not PPU (i.e., 7.65). But who knows for sure. Aside from that, the gun was pleasant to shoot and accurate. The PPK/S I had in .380 hammered my hand, but was very accurate and actually pretty reliable--aside from the fact it liked to drop mags (except the one it came with) while shooting.

I really enjoy the "point and click" accuracy of the blowback guns I've had. Very precise little shooters. I tend to think fixed barrel offers some real benefits in terms of inherent accuracy, low bore axis, etc. These days, my blowbacks of choice are an EG Mak and Sig P230. I enjoy shooting the Mak most, but the 230 is no slouch either. It rides in my glove box and it's my "always there even if I'm not carrying something else" gun. If you're not mad about not having a 9mm... they make nice, trim DA/SA carry guns.

After hand surgery a few years back my wife's recoil tolerance dropped to nil. 32 ACP in heavy for cartridge pistols, like the PP and 1903, is now a range trip staple to accommodate that. The 32's tend to be very sensitive to cartridge overall length and bullet profile. Winchester FMJ hits the worst of both worlds. It has both a short OAL and a flat point nose. Jam-O-Matic is definitely it's nature. PPU by contrast has a long OAL and round nose profile in either hollow point (unlikely to open as it may be) or FMJ. It's pretty reliable. Personal preference currently though is the Fiocchi or Geco 73 grain. Reliable feeders and a bit more power in an underpowered cartridge.