A Neo Nazi just got red flagged in WA state. This bothers me.

[Borderland]

Because this is happening in my neck of the woods, it has me concerned. Militia types are fairly common in rural areas much like the one where I live. I know a guy who purchased a large tract of land and uses the old quarry there as a firing range. He doesn't use it for just his personal use. Lots of people use it but you have to have an invitation. I talked to the guy once and came away feeling that I had just been interviewed.

Militia types have anti-government views. Are they not being investigated by LE? I think they are and could become subject to these red flag laws. I suspect that a friend of mine belongs to the militia that is surely here. I don't think he's a social media type but I would seriously hate to see the weapons that he owns confiscated by the WA ERPO law because some LEO thought he may be a threat. I might add that I know this individuals background and wouldn't consider him a threat in any way.

[0ddl0t]

Information was presented to a judge by local and federal law enforcement. The judge agreed that a temporary order was warranted. That lasts 14 days or until the court hearing. How is that not due process?

According to CNN, his order is in effect for 1 year.

Is it? Or is it actively training for, and calling for, a "race war", recruiting others for a "race war", etc?

https://www.documentcloud.org/docume...Encrypted.html is the actual petition. There's a bit more meat on the bone than "is affiliated with an organization".

The petition had zero evidence that Cole - the individual subject to the red flag order - had ever threatened violence. This was an indictment against his white pride group, not him as an individual.



As unsympathetic as Cole is, this is very chilling....

[blues]

I suggest we move P-F entirely to "pay only" and under the same protection from search engines as the Coterie Club.

How long will it be before we are branded a threat to society?

Round up the usual suspects!

[Poconnor]

My local District Attorney’s alway said if there was enough probable cause for an arrest in a PFA case make the arrest. Are these red flag laws civil like a PFA? My experience with the civil PFAs has been a large percentage are a total fabrication; they are just a tactic in a divorce, child custody and support cases. I fear the red flag laws will be abused the same way. I was taught in judge school “you don’t have to right; you just have to decide. They can appeal it” there is no downside for an elected judge to not grant the petition. If it’s total bullshit the defendant will get his guns back after the hearing. If he comes in and is acting crazy he loses his guns. I was never comfortable with enforcing the civil PFAs. I always thought they should have put them in the crimes code. Probable cause is probable cause. Just remember how many people are afraid of police officers ( they are so violent and racist-) that is sarcasm but any police officer that went through a bad divorce knows those claims come up. Same as “he’s a veteran” “he’s a gun owner” “ he is an NRA member” I don’t believe in “pre crime” If you think he is that much a threat dig into him. Investigate him. Probably the best way is a LAPD SIS type squad but I don’t know anyplace that has the budget to do that

[Borderland]

I suggest we move P-F entirely to "pay only" and under the same protection from search engines as the Coterie Club.

How long will it be before we are branded a threat to society?

All of this is already on a server in the Ukraine someplace. They just have to find it.

[blues]

All of this is already on a server in the Ukraine someplace. They just have to find it.

I hear there's a Hunter already on the case.

[HCM]

Because this is happening in my neck of the woods, it has me concerned. Militia types are fairly common in rural areas much like the one where I live. I know a guy who purchased a large tract of land and uses the old quarry there as a firing range. He doesn't use it for just his personal use. Lots of people use it but you have to have an invitation. I talked to the guy once and came away feeling that I had just been interviewed.

Militia types have anti-government views. Are they not being investigated by LE? I think they are and could become subject to these red flag laws. I suspect that a friend of mine belongs to the militia that is surely here. I don't think he's a social media type but I would seriously hate to see the weapons that he owns confiscated by the WA ERPO law because some LEO thought he may be a threat. I might add that I know this individuals background and wouldn't consider him a threat in any way.

From post 14:

There is no legal mechanism in the United States that would allow a domestic group to be designated a domestic terrorist organization in the manner that international terrorist organizations are designated. Designating a domestic group in this matter would create significant constitutional issues involving free speech and free association.

They are best described as racially motivated violent extremists. It is not illegal to be a white supremacist. It is illegal to use force violence, or the threat of force or violence impose those beliefs on others. The criminal use or threat of violence provides the predication to distinguish between first amendment protected belief and extremism.

As with racially motivated groups, it is not illegal to be a member of a militia. The issue arises when people in the militia want to engage in criminal activity. Some examples would be use or threat of force in furtherance of their ideology, making or acquiring weapons or explosives unlawfully, knowingly providing weapons to prohibited persons, or engaging and other criminal activity like drug, Weapons, or sex trafficking to raise money for the cause. It could also Conspiracy to commit criminal acts. Conspiracy generally requires agreement between two or more parties and at least one overt act in furtherance of the conspiracy.

The overt act does not itself have to be a crime. For example two individuals agree to bomb a government building. Anything they do towards making that goal happen to include fundraising buying materials like fertilizer, diesel fuel, renting a Ryder truck etc. while not illegal by themselves would be over at acts in furtherance of the conspiracy

[Borderland]

I hear there's a Hunter already on the case.

I think he went to ground. Where is Hunter, by the way?

I was wondering if a person can get their pension checks delivered to them in prison. What would a person spend the money on in prison? A new car is probably out of the question.

[WobblyPossum]

I read the petition for the ERPO and the accompanying CBP report. I didn’t read the articles about Atomwaffen. Nothing presented by law enforcement in that petition leads me to believe that the government met its burden to seize his weapons. It’s not illegal to have racist beliefs or to spread those beliefs to others. It’s not illegal to recruit people to join a hate group or to provide them with combatives and firearms/tactics training (barring certain regulations specifically pertaining to non citizens/permanent residents). Nothing in the document showed that Cole made any specific threats of violence or engaged in any criminal activity. The section related to prior LE contact even included two incidents when an “unknown suspect” placed Atomwaffen stickers on street signs. The vast majority of the document is a collection of open source articles about how Atomwaffen is a hate group and some of its members have committed crimes. None of these articles dealt with Cole making any specific threats or engaging in violent actions against others.

I find Cole’s beliefs to be despicable and I’m sure that, as a person, Cole is a complete douchebag. As far as I can tell, he’s not a criminal and isn’t specifically encouraging anyone else to commit crimes. Admittedly, I don’t know Washington’s red flag law statutory requirements but it seems that this order is based entirely upon Cole’s membership in a hate group and his beliefs. I don’t see this standing up in court.
@HCM has explained my concerns very well so I’ll just stop here.

[HCM]

I was wondering if a person can get their pension checks delivered to them in prison. What would a person spend the money on in prison? A new car is probably out of the question.

Top Ramen, foil packs of tuna fish, candy, other commissary items that can be traded for access to an illegal smuggled smart phone.