Ft. Worth Police Officer Shoots Woman Through Her Window

[TC215]

I never said "cops are stupid".
I said this cop was stupid because he pulled trigger too soon.
I'm not gonna try to be in dangerous situation.
I'm not trained nor it's my job.
We expect better from trained professionals.
Just because you have a dangerous job, doesn't mean that's your defense to kill innocent people.
Working at night is for safety and security, not to end up in this tragic situation.
If sleep deprivation and side jobs lead to doing just the opposite of serve and protect, we are in a shit hole.
That's not a defense "Oops I killed you because I'm tired or scared".
Anyway, there are people who always defend cops, there are people who always blame cops and there are some who want cops to be accountable for their actions, good or bad.
As you see, these situations take the spotlight and as long as PD defends these actions, people lose trust.

Let's see what happens.
No reason spending too much time here.
Don't defend blindly and don't blame blindly.

“I shot/killed you because I was scared” is absolutely a defense, if that person was afraid of death or serious bodily injury. It all hinges on if that fear was reasonable or not.

[Stephanie B]

Not to mention the fact that Body Cams exonerate Officer so frequently that defense attorneys are now the one trying to suppress body cam footage in most instances.

So body cams protect the cops who do their jobs right from false accusations and they help hold cops who screw up accountable. Sounds to me like a win-in for all.

[Zincwarrior]

With Guyger we said she fucked up. This man did too. Other than that, we have few details. Since the officer resigned, we will know even less. My wife asked me what I thought. I said my guess is he had a negligent discharge. She said. You mean like the time you shot a hole in your truck door while driving to Mississippi. I said that's right. She asked. Why didn't the cop have his safety thing on? I replied that if the pistol was a Glock, then it ain't got a safety thing, and she asked if my pistol had a safety thing, and I said it has two. Then she told me in Spanish that I was a dumb ass.

Your wife is wise and sounds like my mom. She would have told me in German or Russian though.

EDIT: I may have missed but as of this morning he's been charged with murder.
https://news.yahoo.com/police-shooti...162349996.html

[Stephanie B]

Have you been in a life or death situation ?

Have you been in a physical fight as an adult ?

Have you ever had a gun pointed at you?

Have you ever pointed a gun at someone else?

People in this thread who can answer yes to all those questions and have stood in that officers shoes have already made the same points you did without the condescension.

Unless you can answer yes to some of those questions you may want to consider whether you have an adequate frame of reference to be throwing stones.

So, if a doctor operates on you and screws it up, you're good with not seeking redress because you didn't go to med school and you've never held a scalpel and carved into a living human?

If a pilot screws up and crashes, killing a bunch of people, you're OK with that because you don't know how to fly, let alone hand-fly an instrument approach to minimums?

Is it fair to criticize a politician if one has never run for office?

Because, it seems to me, that is the standard that you're advocating.

[kwb377]

So, if a doctor operates on you and screws it up, you're good with not seeking redress because you didn't go to med school and you've never held a scalpel and carved into a living human?

If a pilot screws up and crashes, killing a bunch of people, you're OK with that because you don't know how to fly, let alone hand-fly an instrument approach to minimums?

Is it fair to criticize a politician if one has never run for office?

Because, it seems to me, that is the standard that you're advocating.

Seeking redress, and saying "I don't know how to do what he does, but he's stupid because he did/did not do..." are completely different.

[Mystery]

“I shot/killed you because I was scared” is absolutely a defense, if that person was afraid of death or serious bodily injury. It all hinges on if that fear was reasonable or not.

I agree as long was there was threat.
In my CCW class, the instructor repeatedly said this,
Use firearm only when your or your loved ones' life is in danger, kidnapping, sexual assault or threat of serious bodily harm.
I hope cops' training has a lot more than this on using firearm.

You can't go to homes and shoot people because you think you are scared or I just came from 24 hour shift and I can kill you and get away free.
I agree mistakes happen.
All I'm saying is when mistakes happen, they should be accountable.
If the mistake is "Oops I punched you in the face", okay fine (PD's have been sued for that too and victims own in many cases) but if the mistake is "Oops, I killed your mom because I thought I was in danger" is not a get out of jail ticket.

[TGS]

I hope cops' training has a lot more than this on using firearm.

LE training on the UOF does include more than this.

However, we are a nation of laws, not of men. What matters is the law, and under the US Constitution and subsequent clarifications by the US Supreme Court we are held to the "Reasonable man" standard. A perceived threat of bodily harm using the facts available to the person at the time of shooting is what we are judged by, not the actual threat of bodily harm as viewed through the lens of 20/20 hindsight following an investigation.

With that said, it seems like the prosecutor's office does not feel the officer has met the reasonableness standard in this situation, so I'm not sure the reason for all the angst in this thread as if the system is broken and cops are corrupt. What is unfortunate (in my opinion) is Texas' very broad definition for Murder. Usually Murder 1 & 2 in most states require an element of criminal intention, and in many states both Guyger and this officer, as well as any civilian who made a mistake would be held to some sort of lesser negligent homicide charge. I'd hate to see you charged under this standard just the same as any LEO.

[TC215]

I agree as long was there was threat.
In my CCW class, the instructor repeatedly said this,
Use firearm only when your or your loved ones' life is in danger, kidnapping, sexual assault or threat of serious bodily harm.
I hope cops' training has a lot more than this on using firearm.

You can't go to homes and shoot people because you think you are scared or I just came from 24 hour shift and I can kill you and get away free.
I agree mistakes happen.
All I'm saying is when mistakes happen, they should be accountable.
If the mistake is "Oops I punched you in the face", okay fine (PD's have been sued for that too and victims own in many cases) but if the mistake is "Oops, I killed your mom because I thought I was in danger" is not a get out of jail ticket.

The courts disagree with you. It doesn’t matter if there is an actual threat— it matters if the officer has an objectively reasonable belief that a threat exists.

Graham v Connor. It will surely come up if and when the officer in this case goes to trial.

[Mystery]

LE training on the UOF does include more than this.

However, we are a nation of laws, not of men. What matters is the law, and under the US Constitution and subsequent clarifications by the US Supreme Court we are held to the "Reasonable man" standard. A perceived threat of bodily harm using the facts available to the person at the time of shooting is what we are judged by, not the actual threat of bodily harm as viewed through the lens of 20/20 hindsight following an investigation.

With that said, it seems like the prosecutor's office does not feel the officer has met the reasonableness standard in this situation, so I'm not sure the reason for all the angst in this thread as if the system is broken and cops are corrupt. What is unfortunate (in my opinion) is Texas' very broad definition for Murder. Usually Murder 1 & 2 in most states require an element of criminal intention, and in many states both Guyger and this officer, as well as any civilian who made a mistake would be held to some sort of lesser negligent homicide charge. I'd hate to see you charged under this standard just the same as any LEO.

I agree on the lesser charges as the officer didn't go there planning on killing her.

The courts disagree with you. It doesn’t matter if there is an actual threat— it matters if the officer has an objectively reasonable belief that a threat exists.
Graham v Connor. It will surely come up if and when the officer in this case goes to trial.

I think that's the sad part.
Someone's belief alone can kill someone and that's enough for justification.

[TGS]

I agree on the lesser charges as the officer didn't go there planning on killing her.



I think that's the sad part.
Someone's belief alone can kill someone and that's enough for justification.

Your comments to TC215 and I seem to contradict each other. Do you really think you should go to jail if you shot someone who threatened you with a fake gun, for instance? Under your standard, it seems that would be unreasonable since in 20/20 hindsight there was no actual threat of bodily harm to you.

How familiar are you with use of force law beyond what you learned in your CCW class?