Re-engaging that stubborn student with a surprise ending

[Al T.]

First, thank you all very much, P-F.com members and TLG. The advice given in the original thread was spot on. Original thread:

http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.p...udent-question

The student and I went our separate ways after the last session, both feeling like little progress was made. He contacted me for another range session (I do not charge anything) after he went shooting with some friends and shot the most classic "comet" pattern you've ever seen. I mean, he shot probably 30ish rounds and the tail of the "comet" was pointing almost directly at the 7:30 position. He had emailed me a picture of the target, so diagnosis was simple.

We agreed upon a date/time to link up and I started my planning process to confirm my diagnosis and isolate the problem. I'm not going into the boring details, but I wanted to have a game plan from the start and this was different from my usual "Intro to handguns" classes.

What I settled on was using a variation of one of TLGs drills, essentially using a 9 inch paper plate modified with HeadHnter6's CD paint plan for the target. Distance was 7 yards, start was from the ready with the shooter firing 5 shots AFAP. Accuracy standards were 100 %, time being recorded for evaluation and (hopefully) progression.

(Slight detour. Reading the AARs here and doing some research into adult learning theory, I noted that having a baseline for the shooter allows both the instructor and student to track progression (or lack there of).)

I took my S&W M&P .45 for us to have our initial evaluations on a shared platform and a relatively harder recoiling pistol. More about that, later.

His first 100% run was at 5.23 seconds. Mine was considerably faster, so I had my edge going forward. But a funny thing happened. He had a couple of trigger jerks throwing his shots off the paper plate, but settled right down and IIRC, his second run was his 100% run. We switched up targets and firearms. I had him do some ball and dummy drills with my 617 and he did OK. Certainly not what I thought he would do as I had him firing DA only with the .22. I mentioned that perhaps the lack of recoil was helping. He remarked that his carry gun (compact .40) had much more recoil than my .45.

Full stop. Holy cow. No way.

We set the original drill back up and I shot the COF with his handgun. I'm not going to mention brand, but it's one I have little experience with and I don't do a lot of .40 shooting either. But still, it's a 10mm Short, so how could it kick more?

I was wrong.

That was one of the most irritating handguns I have ever fired. He wasn't milking his grip as I had first thought, the darn pistol was the challenge. Due to the short grip and "torquey" recoil, the grip was getting pulled through my palm. I have a hard grip and fairly strong hands. Still, it was a challenge for me to stay under 3 seconds. I did have to regain my grip after a couple of rounds. My observation and initial conclusion was flawed as I thought he was adjusting his grip for every shot. What I had concluded was fundamentally wrong. He wasn't adjusting, he was re-gaining his grip.

OK then. Time to change up the game plan.

To make a long story short, we adjusted some of his stance so that he put more grip pressure on the pistol and his control was markedly better. Running that quick and simple drill (but not often) allowed us to generate data that what I was teaching was working. Stole that idea right from TLG.

To sum up, IMHO, this was a bit of an anomaly. The equipment was the issue, which is fairly counter to my experience. My initial mistake, both sessions, was not actually evaluating his firearm & ammo, even though I'd never fired that model. I also confused cause and effect. Lesson learned.

Good side of the story (we all love a happy ending) was that the student progressed and when he fired my 9mm compact, he shot considerably better. Like shoes or hats, getting the size right is fairly important. Having a standard to track progress really let this student integrate and participate in his training. I think that's important.

[John Hearne]

40's are an interesting caliber. The chamber pressures associated with the round make the recoil a distinctly different experience for the shooter. My take is that recoil is compressed into a shorter time frame so it is more noticeable. I've shot a lot of 45 and vastly prefer the overall higher level of recoil spread out over a longer time period.

IIRC, Bill Rogers has observed that the easiest pistols to shoot are 9mm's. Next are 45's. Bringing up the rear are 40 & 357's.

[GJM]

IIRC, Bill Rogers has observed that the easiest pistols to shoot are 9mm's. Next are 45's. Bringing up the rear are 40 & 357's.

Further, he stated that a three letter federal agency had to dumb down their academy score requirements to get people thru, after adopting the .40. He said, if they want to issue the .40, at least use the 9 when doing basic training. Bill commented that his hands were very sore after demoing for that agency daily for two weeks with the .40, and he was icing both hands each night.

Many years ago, when I was an IPSC shooter using a 1911, I carried a Glock 23. When I shot the G23 for proficiency, I noted that while I started off shooting the G23 well, my performance started going down hill after 100 rounds or so. At the time, I attributed it to the Glock trigger, but in retrospect, it was most likely the over pressure (Rogers speak for concussion) of the .40 cartridge.

[jmjames]

I've had similar experiences with .40. At first, I thought it was just me or my gun, then I tried the same in 9mm. The final realization was simply putting 1 mag through a USP Compact .40, that was a very unpleasant experience. A experience with a small Kahr (don't remember the model) also in .40 further reinforced that.

J.Ja

[MD7305]

I was previously shooting a Glock 23 and took it through AFHF last year. At the end of class Todd did a drill where you would shoot your own handgun and then shoot a pistol belonging to another student. I had the only .40 in the class and it was fun to watch the other guys shoot it after shooting a 9mm Glock or M&P all weekend.

I do think that a pistol in .40 is more difficult to shoot vs. the same pistol in 9mm, Glock 23 vs. Glock 19 for example. I find that over large round count range sessions my hands shake. I have to really pace myself because it can get to a point that it ruins a range session and I have to pack up and leave. I never had that issue when I shot 9mm primarily. I really only shoot .40 to stay consistent with my agency's issued gear.

[ToddG]

FWIW, in my experience the 9mm is easiest and least punishing. The .45 and 357 SIG tie for second, and the .40 (using full power ammo) comes in well below them. The 10mm (full power) and .45 GAP are the worst in terms of controllability at speed.

The issue with the .40 S&W is that it's very high pressure (same as SAAMI 9mm) but pushing a much heavier bullet. This results in a lot of torque, so the recoil has more twist to it than push. The gun feels like it's trying to squirm out of your hands. It's certainly controllable if you do your part, but it takes a lot more effort to do it well and, as mentioned above, can become tiring.

[CCT125US]

Before I was using a P30, I put around 5K through a sub compact .40 I learned a lot about recoil managment and what I personally needed to do in order to shoot well with it. I am glad I had that experience because it made me a better shooter. But I have moved on from the .40

[MDS]

Before I was using a P30, I put around 5K through a sub compact .40 I learned a lot about recoil managment and what I personally needed to do in order to shoot well with it. I am glad I had that experience because it made me a better shooter. But I have moved on from the .40

I shoot and carry 9 mm glock, and I have a 617 for trigger control practice. I wonder if it would be worth getting a 40 for recoil management practice?

[Al T.]

I shoot and carry 9 mm glock

Just dip your 9mm in axle grease. That's about what that sub-compact felt like.

BTW, if we hadn't introduced a speed drill into the session, might have missed the "squirm out of your hand" issue.

[Ga Shooter]

Just dip your 9mm in axle grease. That's about what that sub-compact felt like.

LMAO

That is funny right there.