Armed Security at Churches Is Becoming a New Normal

[JohnO]

There are about 238,000,000 non-felon adults over the age of 21 in the US.

There are, at last count, 18,660,000 CCW permitholders.

40,000,000 people live in permitless concealed carry states.

I would assume most congregations are, whether they acknowledge it or not, pretty well populated with guns toted in aisle seats and near entry points by people that care deeply about the folks around them.

Inane state laws and church policies notwithstanding.

A number of years ago I was at a graduation for our homeschool group held in a church. Grandma & Grandpa drove to my house then rode in my vehicle to the ceremony. They were too tired to stay for the reception afterward so I drove them back to my house. I took that opportunity to remove my monkey suit and put on something more comfortable.

Back at the reception one of the dads came up to me, commented on how I had changed and said, "I can't even take my jacket off, I'm packing" as he patted under his left arm with his right hand. This guy is the poster child for the saying, owning a guitar doesn't make you a musician. His son and my son are friends. He invited me to his club to shoot. He is not the kind of person you want firing a weapon in a crowd.

People attempting to punch above their weight concerns me.

[jlw]

We have an oddity in GA law in that it is illegal to carry in a church unless the church's governing body authorizes carry. That has resulted in some interesting political battles within churches over the issue such as whether the local church has the final say or is it up to the denomination. For instance, the archdiocese of GA issued an edict that none of it's member churches would allow carry.

The other question has been whether or not churches can pick and choose who can carry or if it is an all or nothing thing. My reading of the law is that it is all or nothing.

The penalty for getting caught carrying "illegally" for a GWCL holder is a $100 civil penalty, and nobody knows how to start the process for such a civil violation. The law was written this way as the governor at the time just wouldn't go along with it otherwise. It was previously a felony to carry in a church.

I've done training for one dedicated church team that is headed by a retired Secret Service agent who is a good dude.

In my county, we've had several churches set up teams and several others opt to hire off duty deputies to the point that it is actually putting a strain on our resources. We are struggling to meet all of the request we are getting.

[JAD]

There's nothing definitive that I can quickly find about this stuff, but it would be hard for me to imagine it working out that somehow the priest doesn't have the authority, and, more, the obligation, to take measures to promote the safety of the people of the parish.

But I do think it's very clear that amateur security teams attempting to operate without the approval of the pastor would be unacceptable. On the other hand, an individual person who takes the responsibility to protect himself and his family, inside or outside of church, seems well within his rights and duties.

I had actually read the linked NCR article -- the whole Kalchik thing is very troubling. I absolutely agree with you that the question of security teams in a parish is up to the priest's authority; what I too briefly attempted to convey is that I don't like church security teams for the very reason that the parish is not, in any way, responsible for or in authority over the safety of my person. That is, absolutely, my responsibility, and the responsibility of each of my fellow adult parishioners. I actually feel the same way about civil law enforcement -- they're not there to guarantee my safety, they're there to ensure that civil law has teeth and is therefore effective.

I would consider myself an extremely obedient Catholic (which term should be redundant), but when I was unfortunate enough to live in a diocese with 30.06 signs, I was not particularly obedient to that particular concern, nor would I be unless it became a matter of Teaching. I did, by the way, move; and I can't think of any more important reason for a Catholic to select the place they live than the quality of the diocese.

[Moylan]

I had actually read the linked NCR article -- the whole Kalchik thing is very troubling. I absolutely agree with you that the question of security teams in a parish is up to the priest's authority; what I too briefly attempted to convey is that I don't like church security teams for the very reason that the parish is not, in any way, responsible for or in authority over the safety of my person. That is, absolutely, my responsibility, and the responsibility of each of my fellow adult parishioners. I actually feel the same way about civil law enforcement -- they're not there to guarantee my safety, they're there to ensure that civil law has teeth and is therefore effective.

I would consider myself an extremely obedient Catholic (which term should be redundant), but when I was unfortunate enough to live in a diocese with 30.06 signs, I was not particularly obedient to that particular concern, nor would I be unless it became a matter of Teaching. I did, by the way, move; and I can't think of any more important reason for a Catholic to select the place they live than the quality of the diocese.

Gotcha. Thanks! Full agreement, by the way.

[Darth_Uno]

I volunteered to do security at my church for almost five years. The people I volunteered with were a grab bag of people, at least three of them that I'm aware of never once carried a gun.

I volunteered to serve because I have been taught that if you're going to be part of a church that you need to serve in some capacity.

I did not sign up to do security I filled out a volunteer application and said that they could put me wherever they needed me. They picked security.

/

I don't think that most of the people that were or are on the security team or what anybody here would call gun people but I don't think that anybody that served in an armed capacity is what anybody here would call incompetent either .

Same here. I’m “head of security”. A couple years ago I asked what our situation was, and they said we don’t know but you’re in charge of it.

I’ll be the first to admit I’m hardly qualified but thankfully we have current and former LE, EMS, and various military capacities on both the security team and “regular” members. Not everyone carries, and the hardest part has been getting everyone on board with some type of “if A happens, immediately do B” plan. But like you, I wouldn’t say any of them are incompetent. It’s just been difficult trying to streamline any type of organization.

I don’t even know what that would entail. We haven’t got that far.

[Casual Friday]

I'd tried for years for our church to come up with some basic plans and tasks given to certain people in the case of an emergency of any type. It took Sutherland Springs Baptist getting shot up for them to realize that ol' Casual Friday might not be crazy after all. Our church is in a very rural area with a long response time for the Sheriffs dept.

While we don't have a security team on paper, we have several individuals with carry permits who do carry to church, for a couple that's the only place they carry but whatevs, and we all took a handgun course together and continue to train together as much as we can.

We also are working with a local company to come in and give a medical course to anyone in the church who wants to attend, and the church will be purchasing TQ's once people know how to use them. It's been a long road to get where we are but we're getting there, it's not perfect but it's what we have and better than we had years prior.

[TC215]

Some of the issues I saw when I oversaw security at my church:

- There were some guys that were on the security team because it got them serving on a “ministry” where they didn’t have to talk to a lot of people and didn’t really have to do much. These are the same guys that would never show up on time, if they bothered to show up at all.

- There were a few guys that tried to make something out of anything— someone carrying a backpack, someone that looked “middle eastern”, etc. It was difficult to reel those guys in.

- The guys that @jetfire mentioned— the guys that wanted a badge, wanted to be the police, or whatever. The best way I found to deal with them was to have them actually train. I would never intentionally embarrass someone, but it was always interesting to see them realize that they weren’t as good as they thought they were. Several guys could barely draw their gun from their holster or hit the target at 5 yards.

It was also tough to get upper leadership at the church to “buy in”. Every time we had training, I invited the leadership, and none of them ever showed.

When it comes to this stuff, everyone likes to focus on the gun part of it. But realistically, it’s probably more important to focus on empty-hand techniques, medical/first aid, etc.

[GardoneVT]

I did a completely unscientific poll on both THR and the S&W forum, asking what percentage of the time you actually carried your gun assuming it was legal to do so.

Now quality issues aside those are both Firearms enthusiasts forums and the majority of respondents to the poll carried their firearm less than 30% of the time.

I assumed it was understood most folks acquire CCWs for logistical reasons. Having one cuts down on the red tape to purchase and transport firearms in some jurisdictions.

[Joe in PNG]

I assumed it was understood most folks acquire CCWs for logistical reasons. Having one cuts down on the red tape to purchase and transport firearms in some jurisdictions.

I suspect people get CCW permits in a similar way that they get health club memberships or purchase exercise equipment.
It's something they really really want to do on a regular basis, actually do for a month or so, then kind of do occasionally whenever sometimes.

[0ddl0t]

A locked gate wound up being a sufficient deterrent for the Halle Synagogue shooter...