Is Decocking a TDA Pistol Strictly Necessary?

[john c]

I'm asking this as a thought exercise, because I understand the human factors involved in DA/SA operation. But with the trend towards the P320 and other pre-cocked strikers, aren't folks effectively carrying condition zero pistols? Have passive safeties and increased gun handling evolved to the point where this is safe?

In another thread I posed the question as to whether decocking a DA/SA pistol is strictly necessary. In the case of the Walther P99AS, the SA mode is identical to the PPQ. If a shooter were to not decock a P99AS, the safety level would be the same.

I understand the history of the DA/SA design, and the fact that basically every organization carried their pistols in Condition 3 until Cooper came up with the idea of carrying cocked and locked. My experience in the military reinforced the wisdom of this, when a guy shot himself in the ass with a half-cocked 1911. The perception was that revolvers were safe to carry ready to fire due to the double action and long heavy trigger. Thus, Walther adapts this to semi-auto pistols in the PPK to allow for a ready round in DA mode. (I don't for sure, but I'd bet that most organizations still carried condition 3, due to the least common denominator) It's my contention that the gun using public and organizations have adapted to the Glock, with finger-off-the-trigger discipline (not a thing in the '70s and before), so now Condition Zero is acceptable.

So, how does that apply to a Sig P226 or Beretta 92FS? Presumably, the pistols are drop safe in SA mode. If the hammers were to slip off the sears the firing pin safeties would prevent discharge. The standard triggers are 4.5-5 lbs with plenty of travel.

[Bucky]

While I’ve never advocated carrying a DA/SA in “condition 0”, I have frequently asked / compared the difference between a caring a P320 versus carrying a 92 with the hammer back. Neither make me comfortable.

So, how does that apply to a Sig P226 or Beretta 92FS? Presumably, the pistols are drop safe in SA mode. If the hammers were to slip off the sears the firing pin safeties would prevent discharge. The standard triggers are 4.5-5 lbs with plenty of travel.

I wouldn’t rely on a firing pin safety alone to stop a fully cocked hammer drop. Fortunately, this is not the first line of defense from a hammer slipping off the sear. The 92 has a half cock notch. My Langdon did a drop test video of his 92, and the half cock notch caught the hammer when it tripped. The Sig and HK gun’s have a part that blocks the hammer from reaching the firing pin when the trigger is not rearward. This is the same part that the hammer rests on when the guns are properly decocked.

[JRB]

Presently, large parts of the USAF Security Forces now carry their M9's chambered with the hammer back and the safety off. With the correct holster I would feel perfectly comfortable with this because of my familiarity and confidence in the M9 design. Without the correct holster, I'd advocate going hammer-down but keeping the rest.

Meanwhile in the Army, if someone saw a holstered M9 like that, with the safety off but the hammer down, you'd see grown ass men acting as if you were carelessly throwing around a live copperhead or rattlesnake. The officers and SNCO's I see flip out like that are typically the same ones that struggle with M9 quals and spout the never-ending anecdotes about what a piece of shit the M9 is and how terrible 9mm is and how it doesn't have any 'stopping power'.


Bottom line, there's no exceptions to the four safety rules. Everything else is subject to opinions, debate, personal comfort, prevailing organizational practices, supporting equipment, and 100% pure concentrated bullshit.

So long as there are no practices that require you to violate any of the four rules, I'd just do what's comfortable, pragmatic, and sustainable for you, your lifestyle, and your situational risk.

[JSGlock34]

Presently, large parts of the USAF Security Forces now carry their M9's chambered with the hammer back and the safety off.

Paging @jetfire

[CraigS]

I agree w/ the OP's question. That's why our carry guns, my M&P9c and wife's G19 both have upgraded (in my mind) triggers. M&P has Apex's Duty/Carry kit which gives a heavier pre-travel and about 6# final pull. The G19 has a NY spring and a 3.5# connector for about a 5.5# pull. 12yrs or so ago I was plinking w/ my SIL. I was shooting my Beretta 92 and he was shooting a near new Glock 34. So we decide to swap guns. After my first shot w/ the G34 I turned to him and said 'Glock sure has great marketing department'. The trigger felt almost identical to my B92 in SA mode. I really have to wonder about all the striker guns. Glock can say it's a double action gun but IMHO that is marketing BS. As the strikers keep getting nicer triggers like 2nd Gen M&P I wonder even more. BTW all our 92s are decock only and are stored w/ hammer down and a round in the chamber.

[BehindBlueI's]

Not for me, thanks. If I want an SA gun I'll buy a gun designed to be carried SA. Of course I also won't carry a striker gun AIWB, so maybe I'm just a fraidy-cat.

[JTQ]

Presently, large parts of the USAF Security Forces now carry their M9's chambered with the hammer back and the safety off.

This would really surprise me, if true.

[USAF422]

USAF Security Forces do NOT carry the M9 with the hammer back/safety off. Its carried decocked safety off one in the camber. Interestingly enough, our new pistol the M18 is carried with one in the chamber and the safety off, the safety is only utilized during loading and unloading procedures.

[Moylan]

As the strikers keep getting nicer triggers like 2nd Gen M&P I wonder even more.

I finally moved away from carrying a 1911 earlier this year, and I had intended to by an M&P as my new carry gun. When I tried the trigger in the gun shop, I was really surprised at how light it was. It had more travel than my 1911 trigger, but I wouldn't think it was any heavier. I hadn't intended to buy the gun that day anyway: I was just kicking tires. So I went home and thought about it a bit, and decided that I'd never carry my 1911 cocked and unlocked. Why would I carry the M&P with such a light trigger? That's how I landed on the TDA as my new style of choice, and eventually went with a P07.

No doubt my worries are just a training issue, like shooting yourself when you're using a SERPA.

[Hambo]

Have passive safeties and increased gun handling evolved to the point where this is safe?

No.