Is Decocking a TDA Pistol Strictly Necessary?

[oldtexan]

It’s been posted before on this site if you care to search for it.

I did search for it using the search function here, and using google, and found a few references here to "a study". I couldn't find any references that included author, title, date, etc or any other info that would help me find the actual study itself in a library or some other repository. I'm trying to find the actual study so that I can read it myself to aid me in drawing my own conclusions.

And I acknowledge that my skill at using the search function here may be poor.

Those are the reasons that I asked for more info on the study.

[farscott]

Deleted as it is confusing.

[jetfire]

AFMAN 31-129 attachment 2, describes loading and unloading procedures for the M9, you will see that cocking the hammer is not included in said instructions, the other SF specific AFI are FOUO and have a lot of policy on how we do things, and thus not necessarily googleable and I am not on my gov computer but I'm happy to send you a copy of the real Security Forces specific AFIs gov email to email, as it appears you probably have one if the above does not suffice.

Those troops you have seen doing that are full of shit if they told you it was their SOP and they and their supervisors are being willful negligent and its only a matter of time before some dumb shit happens to them. Super surprised that their Flight Chief or Flight Commander has not already had their asses if they saw that dumb shit happening.. cause if I saw that shit, I would be for sure having some one way communication with that flight leadership.

I would have addressed all the USAF specific stuff earlier, but it was my day off and I didn't feel like logging in to a computer to do it, and typing lengthy replies on my phone sucks. Anyway I'm just going to address the USAF specific stuff in this thread.

The previous posters who have referrenced the specific AFMAN are correct, the condition of carry for the M9 is safety off, hammer forward on a live round. The standard issue holster for USAF SF is the Safariland 6005 (SLS hood) which also prevents the hammer from moving to full cock while the gun is properly holster and the hood is up.

I have no doubt that @JRB did see Defenders with their hammers cocked, and that those Defenders insisted it was SOP. I can also almost guarnatee they knew they were wrong and that they should have fixed, but unspoken rule 1 of being SF is never admit to anyone outside the AF/your chain of command that you're wrong. Lie and go fix it later where they can't see you. A likely scenario is these dudes were bored on post and fucking around with their guns, and simply forgot to fix it when they came off post.

Lastly: please don't call us SecFo or SecFor, we fucking hate that.

[YVK]

...As I understand it, the doctrine received from FBI sources that longer trigger pulls are more ND resistant (to paraphrase it) was based on opinions offered by a collection of people who were at the time considered SMEs with extensive experience...

That was my understanding as well. Now, given that the Bureau went with Glock and keeps going with Glock, the logical conclusion is that either the opinion of SMEs with extensive experience didn't matter as much, or the problem itself wasn't perceived as a pressing one, pun intended.

[USAF422]

Lastly: please don't call us SecFo or SecFor, we fucking hate that.

Amen, nothing worse... until I hear some of my new troops doing it

[john c]

After reading the thread, it appears the consensus is:

1) There is very little technical difference between carrying an un-decocked TDA pistol and a fully tensioned striker fired pistol. The main difference is that TDA trigger pulls wear in to lower pull weights over time. Plus, the length of the trigger pull may be shorter, which is a key factor is NDs. Thus, SFA pistols may be a little safer than TDA pistols on SA.

2) The main difference between carrying a TDA and fully tensioned SFA is that if there's a decocker, you should use it. Otherwise, you deserve what you get. This applies to AD/ND and holding ne'er-do-wells at gunpoint. Since P320s and similar pistols don't have decockers, obey the four rules and don't worry about it.

3) This topic comes up a few times per year, and the answers are the same every time.

[john c]

AFMAN 31-129 attachment 2, describes loading and unloading procedures for the M9, you will see that cocking the hammer is not included in said instructions,

In my experience as an enlisted soldier (many moons ago) who was issued an M9, I would be serious money that the Airmen in question were not cocking their decocked pistols after chambering a round, but rather neglecting to decock the pistols to begin with. Thus, leaving them cocked and holstering the pistols this way.

[UniSol]

In my experience as an enlisted soldier (many moons ago) who was issued an M9, I would be serious money that the Airmen in question were not cocking their decocked pistols after chambering a round, but rather neglecting to decock the pistols to begin with. Thus, leaving them cocked and holstering the pistols this way.

I just did a 2 week course with my unit, first week was all flat range drills with rifle and pistol...mix of Glock 19s and M9s....more than one instance of guys failing to decock as they were coming back off target....and they were told over and over. Quality of instruction was not the issue. I think many people do not grasp what is going on with the gun. Many are training resistant.

[USAF422]

In my experience as an enlisted soldier (many moons ago) who was issued an M9, I would be serious money that the Airmen in question were not cocking their decocked pistols after chambering a round, but rather neglecting to decock the pistols to begin with. Thus, leaving them cocked and holstering the pistols this way.

Nope, they were fucking with the guns, they way we load, with someone E4 or above “certified” watching you load your gun. Plus as Caleb mentioned, you cant properly holster the gun with the hammer back.

[David S.]

I did search for it using the search function here, and using google, and found a few references here to "a study". I couldn't find any references that included author, title, date, etc or any other info that would help me find the actual study itself in a library or some other repository. I'm trying to find the actual study so that I can read it myself to aid me in drawing my own conclusions.

And I acknowledge that my skill at using the search function here may be poor.

Those are the reasons that I asked for more info on the study.

Both Darryl Bolke and Ernest Langdon have commented extensively on trigger length vs weight on P-F and various blogs, YouTube and podcasts. I good place to start is DB-diatribe-on-triggers, Why I like the LEM as a street trigger, and a couple other posts.

I don't recall any reference to "scientific studies," per se, but their anecdotal evidence is enough to keep me shooting DA/SA's.