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Thread: Shotgun Reloads

  1. #51
    The R in F.A.R.T RevolverRob's Avatar
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    The old school way of loading a 3-gun shotgun - now called the "Traditional Weak-hand Load 4" technique, has more applicability to a real world scenario, in my opinion, because it doesn't involve a full or partial dismount of the gun. Of course, it's only applicable if you have shells on your body. I actually don't load 4, I load 2, which is less fumbling and results in less dropped shells. Pluck two out, index, shunk-shunk into the tube. You can use two-shell caddies, 4-shell caddies, your pocket, etc. The mechanics of this approach are pretty basic and the take away is brass needs to be indexed in the hand, regardless of where you carry the shells. If the gun is empty and you grab two shells in your hand, you can port load one and tube load the second, with practice this is a very straight forward approach and works for all tube-fed shotguns and for topping the gun off, behind cover, etc.

    You can also see in this video the old school "loop"-style match savers, where it required you to pluck a shell out and put it in the chamber, as opposed to push it with a little bump, into the chamber. Slug-selects from this type of carrier always made a lot of sense to me, allowing the side saddle to hold buck, while still giving you two slugs for easy access. But of course, this format really only works with semis.

    ~Sigh~ 3-Gun shotgunning used to be closer to actual martial use applications.

    Last edited by RevolverRob; 10-03-2019 at 09:58 PM.

  2. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by RevolverRob View Post
    The old school way of loading a 3-gun shotgun - now called the "Traditional Weak-hand Load 4" technique, has more applicability to a real world scenario, in my opinion, because it doesn't involve a full or partial dismount of the gun.

    ~Sigh~ 3-Gun shotgunning used to be closer to actual martial use applications.
    Some good footage of "Mr. Weakhand" himself here:


    A little 3G history here:


    As good as he is with the shotgun, it's really a treat to watch him shoot his rifle and nail targets at 500+. With irons...

  3. #53
    Murder Machine, Harmless Fuzzball TCinVA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RevolverRob View Post
    I actually don't load 4, I load 2, which is less fumbling and results in less dropped shells.
    That's a good way to modify the technique to make it more reliable.

    My big gripe about that technique is that it's just way too easy to fumble shells. It takes significant dexterity and a lot of practice to be able to reliably load the shells without dropping a bunch of them. For 3 gunners there is a significant incentive for them to practice the technique...which is why they can reliably pull it off.

    It's something that most people using the defensive scattergun will never do dependent upon equipment they aren't likely to have on them.

    Pluck two out, index, shunk-shunk into the tube. You can use two-shell caddies, 4-shell caddies, your pocket, etc. The mechanics of this approach are pretty basic and the take away is brass needs to be indexed in the hand, regardless of where you carry the shells.
    That's another problem I encounter at least once in every class: If the shells are not carried in something that holds them in a consistent orientation, somebody will shove the shell into the mag tube backwards. Once the day progresses and the stress load starts to increase with folks having to focus on more than one thing at a time we invariably end up with a gun that has to be taken apart because somebody loaded from a dump pouch and got the shell in backwards.

    It's one of the reasons I'm such a fan of either a side saddle or a butt cuff on a defensive shotgun. The extra ammo goes wherever the gun goes and the shells are held consistently enough that they don't get shoved in the gun backwards shutting it down completely. I mean, I'm pretty good at this shotgun stuff and I'm not sure that under stress with a lot going on I'd be able to reliably index the shell coming out of my pocket. I've caught myself almost loading a shell backwards a time or two while I'm loading from a cargo pants pocket as I'm making a teaching point. My exhortation to folks in class is to use pockets and dump pouches to feed the thing that holds the shells consistently. Or, if they're smart and they're using velcro'd shell cards or Aridus' excellent QDC, to keep extra cards on the line so they can rip one off and throw another back up on the receiver.

    This sort of thing is really where we can see the stark differences between defense and competition. While I am absolutely committed to pushing performance and efficiency, I also have to take into account the circumstances of use. I want people to have manipulations that are quick and efficient. But I absolutely must teach them methods that have the lowest chance of failure. I have to build something they can still do even when everything else has gone to complete shit.

    I certainly have no problem with folks doing extra credit and working on stuff like the old-school load 4 technique and if someone shows up to class and tells me they actually carry one of those shell caddies regularly we talk about ways to take advantage of it...but generally speaking it's exceedingly rare.
    3/15/2016

  4. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Keebsley View Post
    Slight side tangent but not really: what is everyone using for dummy rounds? Something that wont shit the bed after a few uses. Have some Amazon credit I can use.
    These work really well and have the same weight as a normal 12ga shell. I use them to practice quad loading so they take some abuse.

    https://www.brownells.com/gunsmith-t...prod67708.aspx
    Last edited by andre3k; 10-04-2019 at 09:40 AM.

  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by TCinVA View Post
    Not at all uncommon. The local police agencies around me...those that haven't ditched shotguns altogether, anyway...are using bead sighted guns with four rounds in the tube with no additional ammo anywhere on the gun. In some departments officers are forbidden from having any extra ammunition of any sort on their person or in their cruiser.

    A couple of them only authorize the use of slugs.
    Quote Originally Posted by TCinVA View Post
    ...and apart from just the normal factors behind why people don't do more than the minimum, one of the primary contributors to that is that for a fair number of those people an ill-fitting shotgun has never done anything but beat them up.

    If we can teach people how to put a bit and bridle on that thing and tame it, then suddenly the possibilities open up.
    My current agency issues 870 Express shotties, which we are not allowed to "modify". Adding an elastic or lace-up butt cuff would probably be OK, but mounting a side saddle is probably a bridge too far. The single best thing I could do would be to remove the factory stocks and install Magpul SGAs, or even the short Hogue one for cheaper, followed by some hands-on instruction in push/pull.

    As the armorer at my previous (Fed) agency, I was prepared to argue "modify" v. "accessorize" to the powers that be, but it never came up.

    I personally turned in the 870 and tote my personal M1S90 with Mesa Urbino stock.
    Last edited by Chuck Whitlock; 10-06-2019 at 09:59 AM.
    "It's surprising how often you start wondering just how featureless a desert some people's inner landscapes must be."
    -Maple Syrup Actual

  6. #56
    The R in F.A.R.T RevolverRob's Avatar
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    I picked up some of the ST Action Pro 12-gauge shells - https://www.stactionpro.com/12-gauge...0vpkamnolekna7 - But they are too light. Fortunately, they are hollow in the middle and I believe I can stack some buckshot in there and seal the top with some silicone. I've got a couple of old #4 buck shells around here I'm not planning to use. So, I'll probably cut them open and use the shot inside to weigh down some of these trainers.
    Last edited by RevolverRob; 10-06-2019 at 10:33 AM.

  7. #57
    Modding this sack of shit BehindBlueI's's Avatar
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    I can't really add to the main topic, but would just like to throw out an easy way to have some extra gear in case of middle of the night bumps. I keep a shoulder holster with a pistol, two mags, and a flashlight slung over my headboard. I suppose you could keep shotgun ammo on one as well, but I've not looked into it.

    It takes essentially no time to shrug it on, you can be completely nude underneath (and I recommend it!) and you've got a duty sized backup gun, spare light source, and extra ammo on board. Is any of that likely to make any difference? Probably not. The light is arguably the most valuable. But it doesn't hurt anything. Typing this out makes me realize I should probably replace a magazine with a tourniquet.
    Sorta around sometimes for some of your shitty mod needs.

  8. #58
    The R in F.A.R.T RevolverRob's Avatar
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    Turns out I had some extra 3” magnum 00 shells. I’m not shooting those anytime (ever). So I cut them open. Each 12-gauge ST Pro holds five 00 pellets and about half a 3” shell’s worth of plastic buffer. I then topped them with a decent amount of clear silicone caulk. I’ll let them cure overnight and we’ll see tomorrow. By feel they are now about 75% the weight of Hornady Crit Defense 2 3/4” 00.

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by BehindBlueI's View Post
    I can't really add to the main topic, but would just like to throw out an easy way to have some extra gear in case of middle of the night bumps. I keep a shoulder holster with a pistol, two mags, and a flashlight slung over my headboard. I suppose you could keep shotgun ammo on one as well, but I've not looked into it.

    It takes essentially no time to shrug it on, you can be completely nude underneath (and I recommend it!) and you've got a duty sized backup gun, spare light source, and extra ammo on board. Is any of that likely to make any difference? Probably not. The light is arguably the most valuable. But it doesn't hurt anything. Typing this out makes me realize I should probably replace a magazine with a tourniquet.
    That's my take, and I go outside quite a bit at night when the dogs request my assistance. And I end up shooting (a critter) maybe 10-20% of the time. Usually the dogs have already run off whatever it was before I get there but some nights I get to participate.
    Humans have acted with much less logical thinking in my experience based on alcohol/drug use/mental issues
    and can be very stupid/unpredictable.
    My gear is a very simple, cheap TAG belt with a N-frame Smith in a Safariland 567, 3 speedloaders, a 1000 lumen Fenix hand held light, a Camilus Cuda fixed blade knife and a 7 round shotgun card stuck to the belt's velcro.
    Samo thing, naked or fully clothed, I'm just as lethal either way , I can see in the dark, and I have a sidearm and extra ammo. A shoulder holster does the same but my belt setup is what I currently use. I wear the same belt working on our property and use the knife more than anything in my work day.
    I go out at night depending on the ferocity level of the dogs, with a Mossberg 590 so the extra card of ammo is cheap insurance. The 590 has a card on the receiver as well.
    My view is heavily influenced by running a gun totally dry years ago, odds are I won't ever need a reload again but past experience says I WILL have many of them wether needed or not just because it makes me happy.
    Groups of (dumped) feral dogs drive my ammo carrying levels the most, running, circling, beligerant dogs can burn you thru more ammo than expected especially at night.
    ETA: so reloads are important to me but initial solid hits get more time spent
    Last edited by JTMcC; 10-06-2019 at 06:33 PM.

  10. #60
    Tactical Nobody Guerrero's Avatar
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    Milwaukee
    Quote Originally Posted by RevolverRob View Post
    I picked up some of the ST Action Pro 12-gauge shells - https://www.stactionpro.com/12-gauge...0vpkamnolekna7 - But they are too light. Fortunately, they are hollow in the middle and I believe I can stack some buckshot in there and seal the top with some silicone. I've got a couple of old #4 buck shells around here I'm not planning to use. So, I'll probably cut them open and use the shot inside to weigh down some of these trainers.
    You can fill in the primer cup with clear RTV silicone to cushion the firing pin

    http://jerkingthetrigger.com/2013/03...-snap-cap-mod/

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