Page 3 of 6 FirstFirst 12345 ... LastLast
Results 21 to 30 of 60

Thread: Shotgun Reloads

  1. #21
    Member Keebsley's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Idaho
    Quote Originally Posted by TCinVA View Post
    Fiocchi dummy rounds. Might not be available on Amazon but they hold up well to use. I keep 100 of them on hand in a dedicated box for classes.
    Sadly they don't. Have a runner up that you've used or heard of and vetted?

  2. #22
    Murder Machine, Harmless Fuzzball TCinVA's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Virginia
    Quote Originally Posted by Keebsley View Post
    Sadly they don't. Have a runner up that you've used or heard of and vetted?
    Prepare to be a sad panda:

    Everything else I've tried sucks out loud. Looking at the options available on Amazon you are either going to end up with snap caps meant to be used in a break-action gun, or dummy shells that aren't weighted right and will die a relatively quick death when exposed to the rigors of using them in a pump gun. The A-Zooms especially are prone to having huge chunks of the rim ripped right off if you use them for regular training. (Been there, done that)

    It really is worth the extra effort and the few extra dollars to get yourself a box or two of the Fiocchi.
    3/15/2016

  3. #23
    Member Keebsley's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Idaho
    Quote Originally Posted by TCinVA View Post
    Prepare to be a sad panda:

    Everything else I've tried sucks out loud. Looking at the options available on Amazon you are either going to end up with snap caps meant to be used in a break-action gun, or dummy shells that aren't weighted right and will die a relatively quick death when exposed to the rigors of using them in a pump gun. The A-Zooms especially are prone to having huge chunks of the rim ripped right off if you use them for regular training. (Been there, done that)

    It really is worth the extra effort and the few extra dollars to get yourself a box or two of the Fiocchi.
    Sad panda playing a sad trombone...

  4. #24
    Oils and Lotions SME
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Western Pa
    Quote Originally Posted by Keebsley View Post
    Sadly they don't. Have a runner up that you've used or heard of and vetted?
    These are almost exactly the same so far as I can tell.

    https://www.brownells.com/gunsmith-t...prod67708.aspx
    Hokey religions and ancient lubricants are no match for a good Group IV PAO

    Owner 360 Performance Shooting

  5. #25
    TC and I were typing a lot at the same time. To me, this is the issue right here:

    “Of course, the core question is whether or not someone is going to realistically empty a shotgun and find that there are still threats remaining to deal with.”

    So I wonder how much time we are devoting for a student to get that speed empty gun reload when they hypothetically got there because of ton of other issues that were a training priority. This is just a trend I see in the both the LE and Citizen Training world where we spend a MASSIVE amount of time on a pre arranged out of battery speed reload for an event that is rarely mimicked in real lethal force incidents.
    Just a Hairy Special Snowflake supply clerk with no field experience, shooting an Asymetric carbine as a Try Hard. Snarky and easily butt hurt. Favorite animal is the Cape Buffalo....likely indicative of a personality disorder.
    "If I had a grandpa, he would look like Delbert Belton".

  6. #26
    Murder Machine, Harmless Fuzzball TCinVA's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Virginia
    Quote Originally Posted by Dagga Boy View Post
    So I wonder how much time we are devoting for a student to get that speed empty gun reload when they hypothetically got there because of ton of other issues that were a training priority.
    Well, if you were to watch my classes that shit isn't happening.

    The priority in training is to get people to make accurate shots under time pressure from useful ready positions. This means using steel at first to work on getting people reps in on mounting the gun efficiently and mitigating recoil effectively to allow for rapid followup shots and transitions. Sort of like you'd have to do if you had, say, multiple threats inside your home coming down your hallway.

    It's only after we have people mounting the gun effectively and making accurate shots with birdshot and buckshot on steel that we talk about manipulations.

    People are going to have to perform loading manipulations in training, so why not have them learn techniques that are efficient and effective under practically any circumstance where they would need to reload the weapon in the real world while we're at it? Like, even if it's sleeting, their gun is wet, and their hands are bloody and numb due to the temperature and the good idea fairy convinced them to super aggressively stipple the Magpul forend on their gun? (True story)

    And then after we work on manipulations the steel targets go down and photo-realistic paper targets get put up so we can talk about patterning and run drills that emphasize hitting the stuff that stops a threat with a payload of the buckshot within a compressed time frame. I give people, many of whom have never used a defensive shotgun with buckshot before, a requirement to get on target and fire an accurate shot with buckshot with accountability for their pellets in under 1.5 seconds. The ability to deliver a payload of buckshot to the goodie box of a man who is trying to kill you in less than 1.5 seconds...often considerably less, depending on the individual and usually with a verbal task load resulting from trying to convince my simulated "intruder" to leave...strikes me as a pretty effective skillset to develop in someone interested in protecting themselves with a shotgun.

    This gets into that whole "there's no timer in a gunfight" thing.

    There is most certainly no timer in a gunfight. There's just someone else trying to kill you. Stopping them as soon as you can would be incredibly useful.

    The timer is a way of objectively measuring what is happening. The transition SOP is a good one to measure. If someone is able to get an empty shotgun reloaded and back into the fight more quickly than they can produce a pistol and deliver a fight-stopping dose of hollowpoints, it might be quite useful for them to do so. The only way they are going to know whether or not that is the case is to measure their capabilities. I find that once they've had some useful coaching on reloading the shotgun efficiently most people can get another shell in the chamber of the gauge faster...and, crucially, with a higher rate of success...than they can transition to a pistol and get something useful accomplished with it.

    If someone is on a team and they have to continue moving through a structure with speed and violence of action it might make a lot of sense for them to leave the long gun empty and continue on with a pistol. The team sports are somebody else's specialty and they're welcome to it.

    I've been at this training thing a minute or two myself and I've noticed how difficult it is for people to move a long gun aside (assuming they have a sling) and then draw a pistol (which is going to probably be from concealment IF Average Joe has a pistol at all, which he probably doesn't) and make the series of accurate shots it will likely take to stop a determined threat that hasn't been stopped by action from the long gun to this point.

    If I'm using a shotgun because it's easier to use with accuracy under stress than a pistol and because it is much better at stopping a fight than a pistol, and if I can get it reloaded to a useful capacity more quickly and because of the first factor mentioned have a better chance at making a useful hit faster than I can accomplish any of that with a pistol....why wouldn't I do that? The timer helps put a measure on that whole process that leads someone to make an intelligent decision based on their circumstances.

    Of course, outside of Shotgun 360 or a specific LE class I don't even address transitions because the majority of people in the class don't have a handgun on their person when a long gun is in their hand.

    This is just a trend I see in the both the LE and Citizen Training world where we spend a MASSIVE amount of time on a pre arranged out of battery speed reload for an event that is rarely mimicked in real lethal force incidents.
    If you see someone out there who is spending half the day on emergency reloads, by all means tell them they're fucked up.

    I haven't seen that.

    I certainly don't teach that.

    I teach manipulations as a part of learning to use the shotgun skillfully. We do spend time covering how to load both the chamber and the magazine efficiently and effectively, but that is because I have noted that without specific guidance people tend to default to methods that produced a lot of dropped shells. I'm interested in ensuring that they can get a shell into the gun firstly, and hopefully in an efficient and timely manner after that. Because odds are if they are reaching for that shell they need it pretty badly.

    The primary goal is getting people capable of using the shotgun with accuracy and accountability for the projectiles they fire. This usually involves firing a couple of hundred or more shells in a day, which is lots of opportunities for them to get reps on keeping the gun fed or getting an empty gun back into action.

    Hopefully it won't be necessary for them to do in the real thing. Hell...hopefully they won't ever have to actually do the real thing in the first place. But if it's needed, it's needed and since we're going to have to shove a minimum of a couple of hundred shells into this thing during the day anyway, we might as well make sure it's happening in a way that would be useful should that exceptional situation arise.
    3/15/2016

  7. #27
    Murder Machine, Harmless Fuzzball TCinVA's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Virginia
    Quote Originally Posted by Aray View Post
    These are almost exactly the same so far as I can tell.

    https://www.brownells.com/gunsmith-t...prod67708.aspx
    I've tried the Brownells...better than most, but their brass isn't as durable as the Fiocchi.
    3/15/2016

  8. #28
    Just so it’s clear, I am not assigning a single thing to what TC is teaching in class. It is a general view of what I see on videos and social media discussions and range stuff on a general whole. I would hope that what I teach and TC does are fairly close in general subject matter.

    Where I see a TON of this kind of stuff across the board is what comes out of the sport shooting primary skills getting made a priority in street shooting skills.
    Just a Hairy Special Snowflake supply clerk with no field experience, shooting an Asymetric carbine as a Try Hard. Snarky and easily butt hurt. Favorite animal is the Cape Buffalo....likely indicative of a personality disorder.
    "If I had a grandpa, he would look like Delbert Belton".

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Dagga Boy View Post
    Just so it’s clear, I am not assigning a single thing to what TC is teaching in class. It is a general view of what I see on videos and social media discussions and range stuff on a general whole. I would hope that what I teach and TC does are fairly close in general subject matter.

    Where I see a TON of this kind of stuff across the board is what comes out of the sport shooting primary skills getting made a priority in street shooting skills.
    Everybody hold on to your hats for what me, the king of gamers is going to say.

    Shotgun handling in 3-gun competition is completely divorced from real world use of the shotgun in a military, LE and civilian context as to be almost worthless. The emphasis on the shotgun in 3-gun is on reloading speed, and whomever loads the gun fastest wins the shotgun stages. This is completely counter to how most uses of force go down with a shotgun. But you see people practicing their reloads on Instagram because reloading a shotgun fast looks cool as fuck, and Keanu looked cool as fuck, and who doesn't want to be cool like Keanu?

    Thanks for coming to my Ted talk on why 3-gun shotgunning sucks.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by jetfire View Post
    Everybody hold on to your hats for what me, the king of gamers is going to say.

    Shotgun handling in 3-gun competition is completely divorced from real world use of the shotgun in a military, LE and civilian context as to be almost worthless. The emphasis on the shotgun in 3-gun is on reloading speed, and whomever loads the gun fastest wins the shotgun stages. This is completely counter to how most uses of force go down with a shotgun. But you see people practicing their reloads on Instagram because reloading a shotgun fast looks cool as fuck, and Keanu looked cool as fuck, and who doesn't want to be cool like Keanu?

    Thanks for coming to my Ted talk on why 3-gun shotgunning sucks.
    It is frightening how in line we are on things these day....frightening.
    Just a Hairy Special Snowflake supply clerk with no field experience, shooting an Asymetric carbine as a Try Hard. Snarky and easily butt hurt. Favorite animal is the Cape Buffalo....likely indicative of a personality disorder.
    "If I had a grandpa, he would look like Delbert Belton".

User Tag List

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •