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Thread: Shotgun Reloads

  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by jetfire View Post
    Fair point! I actually have run into people who think IDPA teaches tactics, but I just sort of treat them like I'd treat a slow child. "awww, aren't you precious."
    We're definitely on the same page!

  2. #42
    Site Supporter JRV's Avatar
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    Hol' up, IDPA doesn't teach tactics?

    Mind blown.



    On topic, my department never issued sidesaddles or buttcuffs with shell loops, and we had no provisions on belt or vest for reloads. Most guys had a slug or two in an off-side cargo pocket, but that was it. You had four 00 Flightcontrol in the tube, and that was it.

    Our state academy taught the same way.

    My sister's department in another state is the same way.

    We were taught to transition on a "click." Never practiced reloading.

    So, in a sample size of two midsize southeastern departments (one rural, one urban), there were exactly zero minutes spent on reloads in training, and exactly zero opportunity for a reload to occur on the street.

    Never heard of a single OIS in either of our states where someone ran dry with a shotgun and it was material at all. They did drill into us that short-stroking a pump can, and did, get someone shot.

  3. #43
    Murder Machine, Harmless Fuzzball TCinVA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GJM View Post
    Why dont you explain why you disagree rather than just being disagreeable.
    Then let's make it more concrete.

    Take the FAST.

    I know exactly why the FAST exists. I probably have had more discussions with the originator of that drill than anyone on the planet not named SLG or Ernest Langdon. It was created for a very specific purpose tailored to a specific set of coursework. At its original purpose...which is assessing fundamentals and speed of the students who showed up to an AFHF class so the instructor knows what he's dealing with...it is superb. Watching someone perform that assessment gives a pretty darn good read on where their skillsets are at and what they need to work on. The FAST was never the focus of AFHF, it was an assessment used to give students a way to test themselves and compare their progress post-instruction to pre-instruction.

    Are there guys out there shooting the thing a dozen times in a row with the targets not quite at 7 yards and posting their best time out of those dozen runs on Instagram like they are a hero? Sure. But intsaflexing wasn't the point of that assessment any more than it was the original intention of any number of drills we could bring up.

    The defensive shotgun has not received the same attention to performance that pistol shooting has largely because there are such a small number of people out there who are teaching it sensibly. Most shotgun programs are little changed from what they were before I was born despite the fact that there has been significant innovation in equipment and technique since then.

    Guys like Tom Givens and Rob Haught have largely been voices in the wilderness found by the relative few who were intelligent enough to pursue the path less travelled.

    Now we have better guns and we have Vang Comp and we have Flight Control and we also have presidential candidates promising to confiscate modern defensive rifles. People are noticing all this weapon of war talk and they're starting to wonder if perhaps using that AR15 they thought was their home defense weapon might not be the right thing after all. Especially when they internalize the concept of dose on a threat.

    So now as what's old becomes new again, only this time with better equipment than has ever existed in the history of the defensive shotgun, those voices in the wilderness are starting to get bigger crowds. And then there are guys like Ashton and myself who have been nudged into bringing a bit of a different perspective by guys like Todd,Tom and Rob and maybe if we're lucky we will further the art a little bit.

    One of the great things Todd did for the training industry in general is bringing a renewed emphasis on measured performance and a high level of technical proficiency. People showed up to AFHF, learned what was possible, and then pursued a higher level of skill with the roadmap they got in the class. That resulted in some grumbling by some people in the industry who hated his guts because he was, frankly, a better instructor than they were and could coach his students to a higher level of performance than they could. That's why those few personalities spent so much time baselessly trash talking him and his training.

    Others recognized the value in it and embraced it because they'd been trying to get people to see the need to be better on demand for years. A lot of them even made accounts on his forum and participated with one of the most training and proficiency focused group of users you can find anywhere.

    That the timer has a place in serious defensive training should be beyond dispute at this point. That people need to be able to hit the small vital structures buried deep within the anatomy of a threat to reliably stop them from carrying out a lethal attack should be beyond dispute at this point. There is a wide spectrum of useful skillsets in the pursuit of self defense and the shooting part of it is relatively small if we do a pie chart of how the typical problem goes.

    But it is the part that, to quote Jack Leuba, you absolutely cannot fuck up.

    Beyond that, we have learned that people who have cultivated subconscious competence in the use of whatever weapon they are holding are much better able to manage an ambiguous, developing situation without their rational mind leaving them. When they are accustomed to performing useful actions at the speed a fight takes place it delays or completely defers the amygdala takeover that contributes significantly to bad outcomes.

    Drills exist to teach and assess skills. They should exist to support points of instruction in the class and together the drills, exercises, and lecture should support a specific terminal learning objective.

    Drills are not the same thing as tactics.

    A good defensive class is going to combine instruction on performance with a grounding in the realities of lawfully using the weapon in defense.

    I'm not trying to get someone with a pump gun to be able to deliver 3 shots on target in less than 1.5 seconds in the first half of Shotgun Skills because it looks good on the grams. The purpose of the drill...which is explained in detail in the class...is to push the client toward mounting the gun quickly and efficiently, firing the gun with accuracy, effectively mitigating the recoil, and being prepared to deliver a followup shot quickly. To fire the weapon at that pace they have to have developed significant skill in the use of the weapon.

    And the purpose of developing that skill is that when I put them on a photorealistic target later in the day and demand anatomically useful hits with accountability for every pellet fired in a tight time frame while they are task loaded with trying to convince a threat to go away...they can actually deliver on all that. Some report that it even seems easy after they've pushed harder than that earlier in the day. They may not be ready to fast rope out of a helicopter and do hero shit by that point, but they have a much better understanding of the weapon and how to use it effectively and responsibly at that point...which is kind of the goal.

    If students don't get to experience the requirement to use the weapon quickly, accurately, and with accountability in class...all things they will need to do in real life should they need the weapon...then where exactly do they go to get it?

    What separates a good drill from a goofy one usually isn't the drill itself, but how it is being used.
    3/15/2016

  4. #44
    Murder Machine, Harmless Fuzzball TCinVA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by L-2 View Post

    The training to top off &/or reload has already been discussed. I believe it is a "perishable skill" and needs to be practiced. Our department only qualified 2x/year and one can tell who needed more practice. Each person is different with some needing more practice than others. Also, some LEOs handled the shotgun daily in loading and reloading; while others only handled the shotgun those two times per year at qualification time.
    ...and apart from just the normal factors behind why people don't do more than the minimum, one of the primary contributors to that is that for a fair number of those people an ill-fitting shotgun has never done anything but beat them up.

    If we can teach people how to put a bit and bridle on that thing and tame it, then suddenly the possibilities open up.

    A friend of mine recently retired after 25 years as a full time police officer. He was a member of a SWAT team and his primary weapon on that team was a 12 gauge. Prior to his civilian police career he was military police where the long gun they used most often was...the shotgun.

    He attended one of my Shotgun Skills classes and afterwards lamented that in all his time in the military and in police work he had never been exposed to anything like what I presented in that class.

    I know for certain that time learning what the defensive shotgun is really about from people who know their stuff like Tom and Rob has a way of making converts.
    3/15/2016

  5. #45
    Murder Machine, Harmless Fuzzball TCinVA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JRV View Post
    Hol' up, IDPA doesn't teach tactics?

    Mind blown.



    On topic, my department never issued sidesaddles or buttcuffs with shell loops, and we had no provisions on belt or vest for reloads. Most guys had a slug or two in an off-side cargo pocket, but that was it. You had four 00 Flightcontrol in the tube, and that was it.

    Our state academy taught the same way.

    My sister's department in another state is the same way.

    We were taught to transition on a "click." Never practiced reloading.
    Not at all uncommon. The local police agencies around me...those that haven't ditched shotguns altogether, anyway...are using bead sighted guns with four rounds in the tube with no additional ammo anywhere on the gun. In some departments officers are forbidden from having any extra ammunition of any sort on their person or in their cruiser.

    A couple of them only authorize the use of slugs.
    3/15/2016

  6. #46
    Site Supporter jetfire's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TCinVA View Post
    Then let's make it more concrete.

    Take the FAST.

    I know exactly why the FAST exists. I probably have had more discussions with the originator of that drill than anyone on the planet not named SLG or Ernest Langdon. It was created for a very specific purpose tailored to a specific set of coursework. At its original purpose...which is assessing fundamentals and speed of the students who showed up to an AFHF class so the instructor knows what he's dealing with...it is superb. Watching someone perform that assessment gives a pretty darn good read on where their skillsets are at and what they need to work on. The FAST was never the focus of AFHF, it was an assessment used to give students a way to test themselves and compare their progress post-instruction to pre-instruction.

    Are there guys out there shooting the thing a dozen times in a row with the targets not quite at 7 yards and posting their best time out of those dozen runs on Instagram like they are a hero? Sure. But intsaflexing wasn't the point of that assessment any more than it was the original intention of any number of drills we could bring up.

    The defensive shotgun has not received the same attention to performance that pistol shooting has largely because there are such a small number of people out there who are teaching it sensibly. Most shotgun programs are little changed from what they were before I was born despite the fact that there has been significant innovation in equipment and technique since then.

    Guys like Tom Givens and Rob Haught have largely been voices in the wilderness found by the relative few who were intelligent enough to pursue the path less travelled.

    Now we have better guns and we have Vang Comp and we have Flight Control and we also have presidential candidates promising to confiscate modern defensive rifles. People are noticing all this weapon of war talk and they're starting to wonder if perhaps using that AR15 they thought was their home defense weapon might not be the right thing after all. Especially when they internalize the concept of dose on a threat.

    So now as what's old becomes new again, only this time with better equipment than has ever existed in the history of the defensive shotgun, those voices in the wilderness are starting to get bigger crowds. And then there are guys like Ashton and myself who have been nudged into bringing a bit of a different perspective by guys like Todd,Tom and Rob and maybe if we're lucky we will further the art a little bit.

    One of the great things Todd did for the training industry in general is bringing a renewed emphasis on measured performance and a high level of technical proficiency. People showed up to AFHF, learned what was possible, and then pursued a higher level of skill with the roadmap they got in the class. That resulted in some grumbling by some people in the industry who hated his guts because he was, frankly, a better instructor than they were and could coach his students to a higher level of performance than they could. That's why those few personalities spent so much time baselessly trash talking him and his training.

    Others recognized the value in it and embraced it because they'd been trying to get people to see the need to be better on demand for years. A lot of them even made accounts on his forum and participated with one of the most training and proficiency focused group of users you can find anywhere.

    That the timer has a place in serious defensive training should be beyond dispute at this point. That people need to be able to hit the small vital structures buried deep within the anatomy of a threat to reliably stop them from carrying out a lethal attack should be beyond dispute at this point. There is a wide spectrum of useful skillsets in the pursuit of self defense and the shooting part of it is relatively small if we do a pie chart of how the typical problem goes.

    But it is the part that, to quote Jack Leuba, you absolutely cannot fuck up.

    Beyond that, we have learned that people who have cultivated subconscious competence in the use of whatever weapon they are holding are much better able to manage an ambiguous, developing situation without their rational mind leaving them. When they are accustomed to performing useful actions at the speed a fight takes place it delays or completely defers the amygdala takeover that contributes significantly to bad outcomes.

    Drills exist to teach and assess skills. They should exist to support points of instruction in the class and together the drills, exercises, and lecture should support a specific terminal learning objective.

    Drills are not the same thing as tactics.

    A good defensive class is going to combine instruction on performance with a grounding in the realities of lawfully using the weapon in defense.

    I'm not trying to get someone with a pump gun to be able to deliver 3 shots on target in less than 1.5 seconds in the first half of Shotgun Skills because it looks good on the grams. The purpose of the drill...which is explained in detail in the class...is to push the client toward mounting the gun quickly and efficiently, firing the gun with accuracy, effectively mitigating the recoil, and being prepared to deliver a followup shot quickly. To fire the weapon at that pace they have to have developed significant skill in the use of the weapon.

    And the purpose of developing that skill is that when I put them on a photorealistic target later in the day and demand anatomically useful hits with accountability for every pellet fired in a tight time frame while they are task loaded with trying to convince a threat to go away...they can actually deliver on all that. Some report that it even seems easy after they've pushed harder than that earlier in the day. They may not be ready to fast rope out of a helicopter and do hero shit by that point, but they have a much better understanding of the weapon and how to use it effectively and responsibly at that point...which is kind of the goal.

    If students don't get to experience the requirement to use the weapon quickly, accurately, and with accountability in class...all things they will need to do in real life should they need the weapon...then where exactly do they go to get it?

    What separates a good drill from a goofy one usually isn't the drill itself, but how it is being used.
    I wish there was a button on this forum stronger than just liking a post
    I shot the PX4 before it was cool.

  7. #47
    Site Supporter JRV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jetfire View Post
    I wish there was a button on this forum stronger than just liking a post
    I mean, would it be appropriate to do a companion video to your Competition Shooting video discussing, specifically, the merits and applications of certain drills and standards?

    It seems like a big investment of time just to have the insane YouTube boomers shit all over your comments, but you might draw even more eyes to that extremely insightful post.

    ETA: I in no way intended the above to come across as an entitled "YouTube content creator, make content now" kind of statement.

    I was more or less musing that many of the merits of competition, which you addressed in your recent video, cross over to structured training and standards (a competition of sorts in their own right). Pushing to go from Dark, to Light, to Turbo on Gabe's standards; pushing for a consistent sub-7, sub-6, sub-5 FAST; trying to go fast at Two Aces... those are extremely powerful developmental tools for shooters, regardless of training goals or purpose, and the benefits are very similar to those gleaned from competition.
    Last edited by JRV; 10-03-2019 at 07:52 PM.

  8. #48
    Site Supporter jetfire's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JRV View Post
    I mean, would it be appropriate to do a companion video to your Competition Shooting video discussing, specifically, the merits and applications of certain drills and standards?

    It seems like a big investment of time just to have the insane YouTube boomers shit all over your comments, but you might draw even more eyes to that extremely insightful post.

    ETA: I in no way intended the above to come across as an entitled "YouTube content creator, make content now" kind of statement.

    I was more or less musing that many of the merits of competition, which you addressed in your recent video, cross over to structured training and standards (a competition of sorts in their own right). Pushing to go from Dark, to Light, to Turbo on Gabe's standards; pushing for a consistent sub-7, sub-6, sub-5 FAST; trying to go fast at Two Aces... those are extremely powerful developmental tools for shooters, regardless of training goals or purpose, and the benefits are very similar to those gleaned from competition.
    It would, and I've done some of those in the past. There's a video where I talk about the value of Bill Drills for self defense shooting in a reactionary environment. I've not dived into it deeply because it's a very niche topic that requires a lot of time and effort to do well.
    I shot the PX4 before it was cool.

  9. #49
    Perpetually Tired RevolverRob's Avatar
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    Wait...Wait...Wait...

    We have to actually aim these guns and reload them? But ma Creepy Uncle Joe told me you just point in a vague direction, without confirming what the target is, and start shooting. Two shells is all we need, because the hand of God descends and smites with the mighty 12-gauge.

    _____

    Sorry guys. I feel like weve jumped the shark a bit. Learning techniques for loading and reloading a limited capacity weapon efficiently isnt up for question. While I agree it needs to be prioritized after making good hits with the weapon, it is still required.

    If we get good hits out of the gate, we may never do more than top a gun off. And Im a statistics guy and I see that probability wise, were not going to fire very many rounds, if any. None of that precludes learning to run the gun.

    And like a handgun, I always found it a fun challenge to try to run, especially a pump, as fast and accurately as possible. Im not talking 3-gun. Im talking just keep the gun running. And yes that can be sport. But then again, if we never go fast enough to out run our abilities, we dont benchmark ourselves well.

    If we train at 10/10ths and the fight is at 8/10ths were well within out comfort zone. If we train at 4/10ths and the fight is at 8/10ths were jolly well fucked.
    "P-f: I lurked for wonderful combat pistolcraft advice, but I ponied up cash for my daily dose of Dada." - Baldanders

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  10. #50
    Member cor_man257's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RevolverRob View Post
    Sorry guys. I feel like weve jumped the shark a bit.
    Speak for yourself. As someone whose experience with shotguns is mostly hunting and informal clay pigeon shoots I'm incredibly interested in the topic. Prior to me waking up to real learning I thought of my 12G as my home defense gun without considering reloads much.

    The question of a reload's applicability to reality, and in what scenerios it makes sense to do so is very valuable to me. The idea that doubles and quad loads from the competition world aren't especially valuable in social settings is interesting. I always reloaded my hunting guns from a butt cuff, or on more than a few occassions the front pocket of a hoody. More than once at speed.

    Reading the thoughts of not 1, but 2 folks that I understand to be peer-reviewed level shotgun instructors is invaluable. Having another accomplished shooter talking about the relationship of competition to tactics and what doesn't cross over is also valuable to me.

    The gauge doesn't have many disciples. When they talk I'd rather listen then interrupt and tell them to stop.

    -Cory
    Last edited by cor_man257; 10-03-2019 at 10:11 PM.

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