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Thread: Expanding the use of force toolbox with Brazilian jiu-jitsu

  1. #11
    banana republican blues's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hambo View Post
    It's a great idea. At the least it might give younger cops enough confidence to put their hands on people.
    Don't they make them spar at academies anymore?

    In my first UC school we had to fight every other attendee from various agencies, back to back. There was some huge size disparity involved as well.
    There's nothing civil about this war.

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  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by blues View Post
    Don't they make them spar at academies anymore?

    In my first UC school we had to fight every other attendee from various agencies, back to back. There was some huge size disparity involved as well.
    It’s been a long time, but 50% of the cadets in the last basic trooper academy I taught in had never been hit or hit anyone in their life. That changed of course over the next few months, but it speaks volumes about the hiring pool.

  3. #13
    Five years ago I was on a tour of the Columbus Police Academy and saw they still had a boxing ring.

  4. #14
    I recently started BJJ myself. I can see it being incredibly helpful during a use of force incident. I just need to keep certain things in mind regarding UoF policy as @blues mentioned. Things like arm bars and knee bars are no different from any other joint manipulation control techniques or pain compliance techniques but chokes are considered a deadly force technique by many agencies. The ability to get into a dominant position in order to secure limbs for cuffing, keep the other guy’s weapons away from your body, or disengage and create distance is a fantastic and very beneficial set of skills for LE use.
    @TGS it sounds like the people who wrote your UoF policy were smart and practical. I can say “if all chokes were automatically deadly force, how come so few MMA or BJJ competitors die during training and completion?” until I’m blue in the face but it doesn’t matter because I'm not a decision maker.
    My posts only represent my personal opinion and do not necessarily reflect the opinions or official policies of any employer, past or present. Obvious spelling errors are likely the result of an iPhone keyboard.

  5. #15
    Site Supporter Hambo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LSP552 View Post
    It’s been a long time, but 50% of the cadets in the last basic trooper academy I taught in had never been hit or hit anyone in their life. That changed of course over the next few months, but it speaks volumes about the hiring pool.
    I heard that from instructors twenty years ago, and the percentage has to be higher now. In my fantasy academy, DT would start with every candidate getting punched in the face by an instructor. Not only would it be fun for instructors it would show them that they're not going to die from taking a punch. Then it would progress to boxing, BJJ, judo, MMA, etc. Of course that would mean that they would lose class time in important warm and fuzzy subjects, so it will never happen.
    "Gunfighting is a thinking man's game. So we might want to bring thinking back into it."-MDFA

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hambo View Post
    I heard that from instructors twenty years ago, and the percentage has to be higher now. In my fantasy academy, DT would start with every candidate getting punched in the face by an instructor. Not only would it be fun for instructors it would show them that they're not going to die from taking a punch. Then it would progress to boxing, BJJ, judo, MMA, etc. Of course that would mean that they would lose class time in important warm and fuzzy subjects, so it will never happen.
    And we would make Firearms, DT and Officer Survival continuous throughout the Academy and not just separate blocks of instruction.

  7. #17
    Member TGS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DanM View Post
    I recently started BJJ myself. I can see it being incredibly helpful during a use of force incident. I just need to keep certain things in mind regarding UoF policy as @blues mentioned. Things like arm bars and knee bars are no different from any other joint manipulation control techniques or pain compliance techniques but chokes are considered a deadly force technique by many agencies. The ability to get into a dominant position in order to secure limbs for cuffing, keep the other guy’s weapons away from your body, or disengage and create distance is a fantastic and very beneficial set of skills for LE use.
    @TGS it sounds like the people who wrote your UoF policy were smart and practical. I can say “if all chokes were automatically deadly force, how come so few MMA or BJJ competitors die during training and completion?” until I’m blue in the face but it doesn’t matter because I'm not a decision maker.
    FWIW we don't have a UOF policy concerning anything but deadly force.

    We're left with Graham v Connor, and our DT curriculum teaches neck restraints, joint manipulations like the Kimura, and so on.
    "Are you ready? Okay. Let's roll."- Last words of Todd Beamer

  8. #18
    Ari Knazan, also known by his alias Ari Bolden or other alias Ari K has a very poor reputation in the BJJ world.

    He also only has a couple of years as a cop.

    It seems he is trying to take his questionable black belt and short police career and market himself as the next Bob Koga.

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by TGS View Post
    FWIW we don't have a UOF policy concerning anything but deadly force.

    We're left with Graham v Connor, and our DT curriculum teaches neck restraints, joint manipulations like the Kimura, and so on.
    That's pretty awesome. Does your curriculum emphasize the Kimura as a means to leverage the arm into handcuffs or as a breaking mechanism?

    Sent from my moto g(6) using Tapatalk

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by 45dotACP View Post
    That's pretty awesome. Does your curriculum emphasize the Kimura as a means to leverage the arm into handcuffs or as a breaking mechanism?

    Sent from my moto g(6) using Tapatalk
    Both.

    Pain compliance to go into handcuffs if appropriate, or breaking/ripping connective tissue in a protective situation if appropriate.

    Don't get me wrong, we don't turn every agent into steely eyed Bellator candidates....but evolution prevailed, and we ended our decades old program infamous for judy-chops and brachial strikes that work really well on static individuals and are almost worthless in a FUT. Overall, I would still say the program's main purpose is to expose people to aggression and hopefully give them a retained tool or two along the way. Lots of bag drills for conditioning, and another "fight for life" scenario at the end similar to FLETC's fight for life (the one smoke-show during FLETC's basic classes).

    They also reworked the curriculum like @LSP552 alluded to, so instead of getting a block of just DT for a week straight all day and whatnot, now it's DT and room entry for a month, alternating each day for the morning, with legal/crim classes in the afternoon. In the beginning there's a straight block of tac-med, straight block of firearms, and then a straight block of driving, but all three of those skills are rehashed later right through the course with live fire tactics drills and protective scenarios, UTM room clearing/judgmental shooting and FOF exercises, a surprise active shooter during one of the crim class interview scenarios, followed by final firearms qual the week of graduation to get everyone freshly qual'd before they hit the field. There was a LOT of good changes, though most everybody agrees the new investigation block of classes is just a poorly resourced version of FLETC's excellent course from their Behavioral Science Division. Almost everyone agrees that with the exception of the legal classes, that entire crim block should just be dedicated to more hard skills.
    Last edited by TGS; 09-30-2019 at 09:21 PM.
    "Are you ready? Okay. Let's roll."- Last words of Todd Beamer

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