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Thread: “Hard Use”

  1. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by cor_man257 View Post
    The way I think of it:

    Former regular .mil guy. I would consider most line unit rifles "hard use". As in high round counts, semi regular cleaning, knocked into everything, dropped, possibly used for intentional bashing or thrusting, regularly slammed onto metal barriers (turrets) for supported standing, subjected to ridiculous weather conditions. Sparing or mediocre low quality lube applied.

    Conversely, as a regular guy I consider "serious use" guns to be a weapon that is not for target or sporting, but intended to be used against others defensively or offensively. This need not be a "hard use" weapon. A .mil rifle would be a "serious use" weapon. So would a carry gun. So would a home defense shotgun, or LEO rifle. As a private citizen that means it will be high quality, kept as clean as possible, free of abuse. "social use" could be a stand in as far as I'm concerned.

    That being said marketing teams are gonna market. They may not mean it the way I view it, and I guess we each have to decided what they mean on our own.

    -Cory
    high round counts are something I don't equate with regular .mil. Far too little shooting IMHO.

  2. #12
    Site Supporter Paul D's Avatar
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    My hard use guns are my hunting rifles. I have 2 CZ-550 magnum rifles (.458 Lott and .375 H&H) that were customized by Robar (RIP). They have been shot a good amount with full power loads. They have been tossed around by luggage handlers; the rifle rack on the land cruiser; and dragged on rough ground by me while stalking. Accuracy is still excellent, the optics held zero and they are reliable. I paid more than double the base price of the guns to insure it would perform on demand after being exposed to the top 10th percentile of use, abuse, and exposure to extreme environments. It simply had to work and not break.
    Last edited by Paul D; 09-22-2019 at 07:19 PM.

  3. #13
    Chasing the Horizon RJ's Avatar
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    Typically see a Mil STD applied for contracts in DoD land.

    810 is not unusual.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MIL-STD-810

    Dunno if there are any .civ entities accrediting test standards to 810 tho.

  4. #14
    Site Supporter DocGKR's Avatar
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    "Hard Use" = Mechanically reliable, as well as highly durable, with minimal maintenance in diverse and harsh environmental conditions, as well as with extended firing schedules.

    For duty use, the firearm should be able to fire 1000 rounds a day for a week straight with no significant malfunctions or parts breakage. Service life should be at least 35,000 rounds and preferably much longer, given reasonable lubrication, periodic maintenance, and appropriate parts replacement.
    Facts matter...Feelings Can Lie

  5. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Willard View Post
    high round counts are something I don't equate with regular .mil. Far too little shooting IMHO.
    Experiences vary. I was a national guard MP. During predeployment training, and annual training we fired a lot of rounds. While not always frequent, when we did go to a range we fired an almost assinine amount of rounds. Often under the guise of "training" just using up ammo so it wasnt turned back in, despite being grossly unneeded. Something about not getting enough next time was usually the line brass told jr NCOs.

    Even taking out the per person rounds, over the service life of an M4 or M16 series rifle issued to troops, I would consider them high round count.

    Regardless of rounds fired they get seriously beat on.

    -Cory

  6. #16
    Modding this sack of shit BehindBlueI's's Avatar
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    Average home defender long gun: Can it get through a box of ammo then sit in a climate controlled safe/closet neglected for umpteen years and go bang once when it needs to?

    Average cop long gun: Can it get through a case of ammo, rattle around in a patrol car, surviving the vibration and temperature swings, get lubed twice a year at quals, maintain zero and go bang a couple times when it needs to? Will it tolerate being rained on? Will it tolerate being banged off a door frame or dropped onto the pavement?

    Neither is really "hard use" although it could quickly become "serious use".

    I think the closest to "hard use" I've ever personally done was working for DynCorp. Very little shooting, lots of environmental concerns. Dust storms, extreme temperatures, extreme humidity, sand in everything. I think of that when I think "hard use". To me .mil is about can you show up in the jungle, tundra, or desert and your gun will work and be zero'd? Can it continue to run through multiple high round count engagements with little to no availability of spare parts and limited maintenance? Will it tolerate institutional and individual neglect until called upon? That's hard use in my mind.
    Sorta around sometimes for some of your shitty mod needs.

  7. #17
    Site Supporter JodyH's Avatar
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    One of the ranch owners I know of down in the Big Bend area would own what I would consider hard use carbines.
    His rifles are either strapped to the handlebars of a 4-wheeler or somewhere in a UTV all day everyday in the desert southwest.
    He shoots a lot and his rifles are for predator control and self defense.

    To me "hard use" is when they get carried around in hostile environmental conditions, shot a lot, only get infrequent maintenance and still have to perform on demand.
    A step below that would be shielded from the environment better (cased or inside a vehicle more often) maintained more often, still shot a lot and still have to perform on demand.
    Below that is a "house gun" that rarely sees dirt/rain, cleaned after every range session, might still be a volume shooter and still needs to perform.
    Below that are all recreational rifles down to "safe queens".
    Last edited by JodyH; 09-22-2019 at 10:07 PM.
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  8. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by DocGKR View Post
    "Hard Use" = Mechanically reliable, as well as highly durable, with minimal maintenance in diverse and harsh environmental conditions, as well as with extended firing schedules.

    For duty use, the firearm should be able to fire 1000 rounds a day for a week straight with no significant malfunctions or parts breakage. Service life should be at least 35,000 rounds and preferably much longer, given reasonable lubrication, periodic maintenance, and appropriate parts replacement.
    What DocGKR wrote is what I want--something built up to the mil-spec level of use, durability, and reliability.

    For an AR I want something that I can practice take to a 2 or 3 day carbine class and have it run 500-800 rounds a day and have it work reliably with a bit of lube every day, then take it home, clean it briefly and be able to rely on it, as well as use it for practice.

    I think the most I have personally fired in a carbine class was about 750-800 rounds in a Jeff Gonzales carbine class. It seemed like too much. The AR that I had at the time had one malfunction--a stovepipe--in the two day class.

  9. #19
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    In regards to AR platform rifles, a dozen years ago there was strong debate about whether or not your rifle needed to be "mil-spec" (conform to the technical data package) in order to survive hard use.

    I don't know the answer to that question, but I own three Colt ARs and one BCM and have never had significant problems with any of them. BUT I probably shoot 1000-1,200 rounds a year in practice, which isn't that much. And I go to a rifle class about every three years and the round count on those can vary. I took a class with Pat Rogers in 2007 and we went through 1,350 in three days. Other classes I have attended were 600-800 in two days.

  10. #20
    Site Supporter rob_s's Avatar
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    Overall I think it’s a term that’s gotten overused to the point of not really meaning much.

    However, I don’t know that a product so much needs to SEE “hard use” as it does need to be CAPABLE OF “hard use” to meet the definition.

    For myself, I switched to “critical use” some years ago, mostly as a way to distinguish in my own mind between my own carry/defensive guns and the guns I was either tinkering with or that I had for T&E or articles. It is also a better term because people can apply it to their own situation however it fits. If you’re a hardcore competition guy your “critical use” guns may be your game guns. If you’re living off the wild game you harvest, or believe you have a need for defense against wild animals, or you’re a rancher that shoots predators to keep them away from your livestock, your “critical use” could be something different.

    In all cases, whether or not it’s “hard use”, or needs to be capable of same, is a separate measure.

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