Vickers' 50/50 Rule for M4 Carbines

[FredWyn]

cause marines notoriously don't follow directions so it was a way to ensure the lazy or complacent who didn't do a brass check had a round chambered

Brass checks are great when there is light to see the brass.

To assure a round has loaded, you touch the top round in your mag and determine if it is sitting to the left, or right, then you load up, eject mag, feel for the round and if it is still on the same side, you don't have a round chambered.

This is what our former DEVGRU, current-Federal agency trainer drills into us when we reload and we do it always with our eyes closed, which trains you to use the same physical motions always to reload, regardless of being able to watch/see while loading.

FWIW.

[Redhat]

Redundancy in assuring weapon function is a good thing. You ingrain certain steps as insurance against malfunction.

Never had a problem chambering a round either way. Taught troops both ways too. There is more than one way to screw up if you don't do it right. If you don't trust it to work do what makes you feel confident.

Should I rack the slide on my pistol or use the slide stop to chamber a round...etc

[JRB]

Brass checks are great when there is light to see the brass.

To assure a round has loaded, you touch the top round in your mag and determine if it is sitting to the left, or right, then you load up, eject mag, feel for the round and if it is still on the same side, you don't have a round chambered.

This is what our former DEVGRU, current-Federal agency trainer drills into us when we reload and we do it always with our eyes closed, which trains you to use the same physical motions always to reload, regardless of being able to watch/see while loading.

FWIW.

I'm guessing that this DEVGRU guy never had to deal with the mag bins we find in line units, and the E4's we find in line units.

Depending on the black/green/tan followers, the 30th round switched sides going from the green to the tan followers.
That strategy relies on people having 100% consistent magazines that can also be trusted to load all 30 rounds when told to do so. That is emphatically NOT E1-E5's in most line units. Doubly so in support units.

Having enough light to do a brass check is one of thousands of reasons why I insist on Soldiers having a flashlight that isn't attached to their weapon. If light discipline is an issue, lights with red lenses are a thing, and if you're doing a brass check in an AO where light discipline is a problem - you're doing a brass check WAY too late in the damn game.

[FredWyn]

I'm guessing that this DEVGRU guy never had to deal with the mag bins we find in line units, and the E4's we find in line units.

Depending on the black/green/tan followers, the 30th round switched sides going from the green to the tan followers.
That strategy relies on people having 100% consistent magazines that can also be trusted to load all 30 rounds when told to do so. That is emphatically NOT E1-E5's in most line units. Doubly so in support units.

Having enough light to do a brass check is one of thousands of reasons why I insist on Soldiers having a flashlight that isn't attached to their weapon. If light discipline is an issue, lights with red lenses are a thing, and if you're doing a brass check in an AO where light discipline is a problem - you're doing a brass check WAY too late in the damn game.

Few things:

1) Download to 28 rounds.
2) You feel for where the top round is, before you load it. May be on right, or on the left.
3) Load.
4) Pull magazine out, check top round. If the top round is on the opposite side before loading, you have a loaded round.
5) Brass checks are great when you have the light to see it. You can't always depend on that.

No offense, I am pretty sure "this DEVGRU guy" (total years on the Teams: 25 years, last eight on DEVGRU) was in enough, more than enough, actual firefights in all manner of conditions to know what he is talking about. They train for the worst-case scenarios to be sure.

[FredWyn]

Never had a problem chambering a round either way. Taught troops both ways too. There is more than one way to screw up if you don't do it right. If you don't trust it to work do what makes you feel confident.

Should I rack the slide on my pistol or use the slide stop to chamber a round...etc

I prefer using the full force of the spring, be it in a handgun or in a rifle, rather than rely on slide lock or bolt lock. To each his own. However you train is what you'll do under stress, so stick with what works for you.

[Redhat]

I guess that just goes to show not all "experts/SME's" agree on everything.

Again, do you download your pistol mags too?

[blues]

99.9% of the members of this site will have more than adequate time and occasion to ensure their equipment is properly loaded and functioning before the balloon goes up.

Nothing wrong with Vickers' "rules" as they are basic. Whether someone wants to fully load their magazines or not is a personal choice based upon their experience and / or philosophy.

I had one issue early on with an AR which may or may not have been partially my fault. As a result I generally download my 30 round mags by a round or two. That said, I don't think it's a hard and fast rule, and certainly not one I'd preach.

I never download any of my Glock magazines.

This does not need to turn into a tempest in a teapot.

[FredWyn]

I guess that just goes to show not all "experts/SME's" agree on everything.

Again, do you download your pistol mags too?

It depends. I do with my higher capacity magazines 30+ rounds and even with my mags with Taran extensions until the springs break in a bit more. Depends also on when/where I'm using the magazines.

[Redhat]

99.9% of the members of this site will have more than adequate time and occasion to ensure their equipment is properly loaded and functioning before the balloon goes up.

Nothing wrong with Vickers' "rules" as they are basic. Whether someone wants to fully load their magazines or not is a personal choice based upon their experience and / or philosophy.

I had one issue early on with an AR which may or may not have been partially my fault. As a result I generally download my 30 round mags by a round or two. That said, I don't think it's a hard and fast rule, and certainly not one I'd preach.

I never download any of my Glock magazines.

This does not need to turn into a tempest in a teapot.

I'l just leave this for those interested:

https://www.vickerstactical.com/magazines.html


And FWIW I also agree with this: "This does not need to turn into a tempest in a teapot."

[FredWyn]

I'l just leave this for those interested:

https://www.vickerstactical.com/magazines.html


And FWIW I also agree with this: "This does not need to turn into a tempest in a teapot."

I have gotten to know Larry Vickers via training classes I've taken from him whenever he is within driving distance of my home. I know some people love to trash the guy, and these are, forgive me, the same Internet Idiots who troll about various gun forums, usually self-taught, self-appointed experts, or people who think James Yeager is the gold standard for all things firearms.

I will simply say this. In my many conversations with Mr. Vickers, I've come away, every time, with a lot of education. I believe strongly in the principle that one should shut up and listen, take it all in, and learn. Vickers is a real-deal subject-matter expert on those areas of "all things firearms" that he is all about.

His training classes are superb. I'm a professional educator/author myself and I know a skilled craftsman as he goes about his business. If anyone has the chance to take Vickers for a class: do it.

His books are the very finest books out there. His classes are superb. He never fails to give credit where credit is due and always has the highest regards for other professional firearm professionals.

That's all I have to say about that.