Vickers' 50/50 Rule for M4 Carbines

[Jay Cunningham]

With Magpul magazines you don't have to do that.

Such is the claim, but I’ve witnessed otherwise.

In the other direction I’ve witnessed 31 rounds stuffed into PMAGs. One might simply say “operator error” but it doesn’t make reality change.

[ST911]

If you have GI aluminum 30 magazines, you might wish to consider downloading them to 28 to make it easier to do an in battery reload.

With Magpul magazines you don't have to do that.

I'm not sure about Tango Down magazines. I don't think you have to download them either.

My canned line has historically been that there isn't a magazine I could expect to reliably load 30 rounds and seat easily under a closed bolt across it's production. That didn't mean there weren't samples of one or a dozen, just that I didn't find that I could always count on Mag X to do it anytime or anywhere I found one.

It's still true for the GI type, but spring and follower combinations vary. The M3 pmags are the best the pmag has ever been and are more consistent. The TD ARC mags are most likely to easily do 30, both v1 and v2. Lancers are okay and mostly a GI type, the DDs are 32rds and will do 32 but I see the least of those. The mags on this list are the only ones I bother with.

"SMEs" come down on both sides of a lot of issues. I appreciate their contributions and perspective, but they are a word, sometimes a big one, but not the last word.

[HCM]

Such is the claim, but I’ve witnessed otherwise.

In the other direction I’ve witnessed 31 rounds stuffed into PMAGs. One might simply say “operator error” but it doesn’t make reality change.

The loading issues I’ve seen with Pmags have all involved loading > 30 rounds.

Often when loading from loose ammo in a box or can.

[Wake27]

Honestly it’s much easier for me to tell when I’ve hit 30 rounds in a PMAG than GI. I’m not sure what it is, but it’s like noticing that the bolt locked back on empty while firing. I just know the feel of it. It’s not as noticeable in GI mags so it’s harder to tell. Plus windows always help.


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[11B10]

Comments from the peanut gallery:


A lot of the regulars know I did psd overseas, but many don't know I was also cross trained as an armorer . The reason I mention that is that for a while before we received .gov guns (Colt M4A1s), we had company owned guns, which at one location (for example) were Bushmasters.

We did not have an actual "armory". Just a metal hooch, with no tables or benches. Everything had to be built.

Nor did we have tools or anything like spare parts to keep them running.

In fact here is a pic after receiving some .gov love (M203s, M4A1s)



Keeping guys carbines running often meant cannibalizing other ones that were deadlined, often using parts of questionable serviceability. I was phenomenally relieved when we received the shipment of Colt M4A1s. Both from the standpoint of an armorer and as a psd guy.

Back to the armorer side. Trying to keep the BM rifles running, the problems were more often than not of the following nature:

Castle nuts not staked properly.
Carrier keys not staked properly.
or
Magazines pretty much NEVER being replaced.

Obviously the last one was not a weapon issue.

* This and failing Eotechs, which failed at a phenomenal rate, but that is a whole other subject, and one for another time.

However the majority of the time when a shooter had an issue that was magazine related, I could download the mag 2 rounds and the issue was resolved. More often than not I would have to literally take the person to the range and show them (especially fixed site security guards) the difference it could and did make in seating on a closed bolt. Same with showing guys how to adjust their magazine release button.

The 28 rounds in GI mags is a solid piece of advice.

In fact I always loaded my mags (when doing PSD, versus other assignments) as follows:

First 3 Tracer
20 rounds Green Tip
Last 5 Tracer


The reasoning behind this was as follows:

When making contact, a guy/guys may say " Contact right, Contact front," or wherever and others may hear that in person or over the radio, but unless they see the initial exchange, they may not know where this is taking place. Those first three rounds are a very real, very visual indicator that allow everyone within visual range to see what is happening. The first thing that always breaks down during an engagement is communication. This is essentially a form of non verbal/visual communication.

The next 20 rounds are what they are.

The last 5 Tracer rounds indicate it is time to start thinking about reloading.






On a sidebar:

I had some 1951 Helwans, CZ75s, BHPs, you name it in cardboard boxes around there.

It was like the United Nations of well worn war pistols.



It is interesting how much "armoring" you can do with a Leatherman and a set of Vice Grips...




It is no wonder I ended up with ulcers. Typical morning, Coffee and Tylenol..

Thanks, Lost, everything here is a long-needed refresher course for me. As for your "shop," I'm lovin all your tools, especially the French press.

[TCinVA]

But as for Yeager...seriously? After he had his concealed carry licensed yanked by TN for threatening to kill people? And after his company has has numerous very serious safety issues exposed, such as putting a photographer in front of students shooting handguns, and the incident where his company was banned from a facility because an an instructor caused a negligent discharge, oh, not to mention his act of incompetence and cowardice that cost people his lives in Iraq, and his firing from local law enforcement in TN, really? You going to defend this idiotic cretin???

Nobody is defending James Yeager.

Vickers has plenty of issues of his own, including shit-talking lots of other instructors in the industry he disagrees with. That would include all the incredibly disrespectful things he did toward the founder of this forum, Todd Green.

I was actually one of Todd's friends. I'm one of the founding members of this site who helped stand it up and I saw everything up close and personal. Most of that is history I'm sure you are not familiar with, but it's plenty real.

Suffice it to say this: You don't need to give Pistol-Forum the lowdown on either Yeager or Vickers because many of us know far more about both of those individuals than you can possibly imagine.

[TCinVA]

While this thread is mostly retarded, I’ll say that I’ve both had and witnessed multiple instances of 30 round loaded USGIs AND PMAGs either not lock in on a bolt forward gun or get hung up trying to strip a round off the top.

I load all my 30 AR magazines with 28 rounds, and I download my Glock magazines by one round for the same reasons.

I’ve experienced it myself and seen it happen to numerous other people, both students on the line with me and students of mine.

Indeed.

I'm reminded of an active shooter situation caught on camera recently where an officer responding with his carbine fired a single round and you can see his magazine drop from the mag well. Most likely he had a magazine with more than 28 rounds in it and failed to check for proper seating by pulling on the magazine. Thankfully another officer finished the job with her sidearm.

With the variations out there in magazines, mag wells, and mag release buttons it's a useful practice to download to 28 rounds.

[Redhat]

Indeed.

I'm reminded of an active shooter situation caught on camera recently where an officer responding with his carbine fired a single round and you can see his magazine drop from the mag well. Most likely he had a magazine with more than 28 rounds in it and failed to check for proper seating by pulling on the magazine. Thankfully another officer finished the job with her sidearm.

With the variations out there in magazines, mag wells, and mag release buttons it's a useful practice to download to 28 rounds.

Or know your equipment before hand...and how to operate it.

I wonder if the officer had been trained on or practiced "push-pull" or if that rifle was one that rotated shifts instead of being assigned to an individual?

[OlongJohnson]

Depends on the spring and how you use the space. I can tell you from personal experience Glock mag springs do wear out. HK mags will still be working when the cockroach people arise from the ashes of our civilization.

Due to current events, I recently inventoried all my mags. After AR and Buck Mark, I had more USP .45 mags than anything else. Second was P220. Both of them as a result of buying used guns that came with a pile.

Need moar USP 9mm mags.

[BigD]

Indeed.

I'm reminded of an active shooter situation caught on camera recently where an officer responding with his carbine fired a single round and you can see his magazine drop from the mag well. Most likely he had a magazine with more than 28 rounds in it and failed to check for proper seating by pulling on the magazine. Thankfully another officer finished the job with her sidearm.

With the variations out there in magazines, mag wells, and mag release buttons it's a useful practice to download to 28 rounds.

I agree that he most likely failed to check that the magazine was seated properly, but you can fail to seat a 28 round magazine too. Some folks haven’t spent enough time in the small arms repair room (aka gym) to quickly and consistently seat a 28 round magazine on a closed bolt. (But yes it is easier than seating a 30 rounder. But it’s not fail safe.)