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Thread: Is your strong hand grip position the same SHO vs freestyle?

  1. #11
    At my point in trying to be a better shooter, I don't even think about my SHO grip. It is much the same as two handed grip. I assume the gun is going to move a lot more than in a two handed grip so I just don't worry about it. I am slower getting the sights aligned and slower on the next shot. At my level, I am focused on making the shot hit where I want it so anything else is not too concerning.

  2. #12
    Site Supporter JohnO's Avatar
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    Exactly the same for me. Thumb too, as it is riding the safety. Never once has it crossed my mind to do anything different with a SHO grip. If I switch from Freestyle to SHO my support hand comes off the gun. If I draw with the intention of shooting SHO I am still going to acquire the same grip on the gun. I really can't see how the gun ends up being held differently SHO unless:

    1. The shooter consciously alters how they acquire their grip from holster.
    2. Uses their support hand to hold the gun while they adjust their strong hand grip.

    In both cases the additional time & conscious thought needed isn't going to play well if you really need to use your gun SHO 'urgently'.

    I say stick with what you know best and don't complicate the process.

  3. #13
    Site Supporter Clobbersaurus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnO View Post

    1. The shooter consciously alters how they acquire their grip from holster.
    2. Uses their support hand to hold the gun while they adjust their strong hand grip.

    In both cases the additional time & conscious thought needed isn't going to play well if you really need to use your gun SHO 'urgently'.

    I say stick with what you know best and don't complicate the process.
    I theory this would seem like the correct course of action.

    However, through trial and error, I’ve found that altering my SHO grip gives better results. There’s no need to hold the gun with my support hand while doing so. Through enough training and repetition, there is now no conscious thought needed to alter my SHO grip to my preferred method, it just happens subconsciously.
    Last edited by Clobbersaurus; 09-22-2019 at 09:15 AM.
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  4. #14
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    I mostly shoot 1911s and my SHO grip is the same as my two-handed grip. My thumb rides the safety either way.

  5. #15
    Site Supporter 0ddl0t's Avatar
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    So I've been thinking on it some more (dangerous, I know) and I think I'm subconsciously lining up the pistol with my forearm when I shoot SHO while centering the pistol in line between my two hands when shooting supported. So my SHO placement is like the picture on the left, while my freestyle strong hand placement is more like the picture on the right:



    If I use the SHO grip shown on the left while shooting with 2 hands, I have to unlock & rotate my wrist a lot farther to join my support hand in an isosceles position (which seems to invite limp-wristing) or I have to use more of an awkward lopsided weaver stance. Am I alone in this?
    Last edited by 0ddl0t; 09-27-2019 at 02:36 AM.

  6. #16
    Deadeye Dick Clusterfrack's Avatar
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    Is your strong hand grip position the same SHO vs freestyle?

    @0ddl0t, I think trying different grips and measuring the results is a good way to go. How do your sights track with either grip?

    Personally I don’t like an extreme H grip as on the right. My grip for freestyle and SHO gives me a good trigger finger angle, a front-back clamp grip with my strong hand, and a side-side clamp with my support hand.

    You don’t need a symmetrical H grip to shoot in a modern isosceles stance.

    Last edited by Clusterfrack; 09-27-2019 at 03:58 AM.
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  7. #17
    Site Supporter 0ddl0t's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clusterfrack View Post
    @0ddl0t, I think trying different grips and measuring the results is a good way to go. How do your sights track with either grip?
    With SHO my front sight goes up in an arc maybe 15-20° away from my strong side while with freestyle it goes up in a straight line maybe 5° toward my strong side. I haven't tried tracking my sights with reversed hand placement - that will be interesting to see.


    Edit: While searching "what is an H grip" I came across an earlier PF thread where you, Gabe, & Surf had an interesting exchange discussing this very topic:


    Quote Originally Posted by Mr_White View Post
    Quick question for those who aren't concerned about having the slide/barrel align with the bones of the forearm when shooting freestyle from mod iso: do you think that lack of alignment becomes more significant when the pistol is fired with one hand only?

    What I'm getting at is whether there may be a difference between lacking that alignment in mod iso because of back pressure in the wrist/forearm of the strong hand, vs. lacking that alignment because the hand and gun don't fit well so the h-grip is used out of necessity, and how effectively those two arrangements might translate to shooting the gun one-handed.
    Quote Originally Posted by Clusterfrack View Post
    That's a great question, Gabe. I'll answer for how it works for me. If I make a U shape with my hand, so the thumb is straight, a small frame Glock is aligned with the thumb, the backstrap is square against my palm, and my trigger finger can form a neutral position on the trigger when it breaks. The gun seems to be ideally aligned in my hand in an unambiguous grip, which is one reason I like Glocks so much. With a two handed grip, proper alignment of the sights with my eye requires a slight rotation of my wrist, which "misaligns" the gun with the bones of the forearm. I don't see much of a difference in wrist angle when I transition to SHO--just enough to maintain sight alignment when I move my left foot back a bit.

    When my 14-year old daughter shoots a Glock, she has to H-grip, and that kittens up her SHO and WHO shooting.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr_White View Post
    h-grip is what a person does when the reach to the trigger is too long for a person's hand size/finger length/finger strength, and they need to adjust their grip to get more finger on the trigger. The side effect is normally to make it harder to reach controls with the strong hand thumb on the support side of the gun, and to prevent alignment between the slide/barrel and the bones of the forearm when the gun is held with one hand. Having that slide-forearm alignment is something that is often (traditionally, I think?) taught as part of a 'proper grip' and part of 'proper' gun-to-hand fit, but that is not universally agreed upon. That more traditional grip is also not possible when the factual situation is that a person is stuck with a gun (issued, economic, or other situational necessity) that is too big for their hands, so it does have to be dealt with at least some of the time.




    That's pretty much how it breaks down for me too and that's exactly what I was getting at. I used to 'overgrip' comparatively speaking, which was probably a hangover from when I shot an old school G21, which I h-gripped slightly. A few years ago I changed to gripping less, which allowed the more traditional slide-forearm alignment and gets less finger on the trigger (this was with the G17 and later the G34.)
    Quote Originally Posted by Clusterfrack View Post
    A while ago I was experimenting with a slight h grip that allowed me to get some support hand thumb base behind the gun. It was great for recoil control but I moved away from that for multiple reasons: trigger finger mechanics, consistency with SHO, and mag release.
    Quote Originally Posted by Surf View Post
    I was a Chapman type of shooter from 25+ years ago, so the "muzzle alignment with the forearm bone" was more advantageous at that time as that type of stance aligns the muzzle, forearm and eye from an offset or canted stance in a straight alignment. It took me many years to get over that ingrained concept even after adapting to the Mod Iso, where I thought I still needed that bone alignment. The argument is recoil mitigation along the bone structure, yada, yada. Hell I taught that alignment for years admittedly out of dogmatism, even though I myself had gone completely away from it. I only completely scrapped teaching it within my program in the last 3 years or so, instead attempting to get a natural point of aim first and if forearm alignment does or does not happen so be it, with one caveat. If the shooters hand is so small that the natural point of aim alignment puts the backstrap of the weapon on the knuckle of the primary shooting hands thumb, than this can also be an issue.

    In a true Mod Iso, the main concern IMO is the neutrality of the grip. Keeping the weapons alignment straight with the LOS without the need for any tension, be it muscular, counter tension or counter torquing of the weapon. Of course people can be phenoms and do things with high success that most cannot. From any stance I believe we should align the weapon in the same manner we align a rifle with a natural point of aim, or the natural LOS without any influence from the grip, fingers or tension applied on the weapon to get the alignment.

    As for your question directly in regards to one handed shooting, think of this. Go from a two handed Mod Iso without bone alignment. Then remove your support hand and push the weapon and your primary hand forward at bit. Your shoulders rotate slightly, the head moves slightly and the pistol and hand comes in to a bone alignment allowing for more stability that you lost with the support hand. Your grip on the weapon does not change but the alignment straightens itself out. For myself and those that I work with most often will tend to pronate the grip slightly, never going beyond 45* cant. This is often a default for myself as a good deal of my one handed shooting revolves around a shield and unless if you have orangutan length arms you must bend at the elbow and cant the pistol in order to be able to even get on the sights. I used to have video shooting rapid strings of fire on steel from this pronated or canted position and I used to get quite a bit of inquiry or comments over it. Bottom line is if you start to pronate the palm, the wrist structure gets stronger, which manages recoil efficiently. You must however get used to the path of recoil as recovery of the weapon is no longer up and down. But with one hand on the weapon will still need to learn a varied path of recovery anyway.

    PS: So why is it called an "H" grip?
    Last edited by 0ddl0t; 09-27-2019 at 04:43 AM.

  8. #18
    Deadeye Dick Clusterfrack's Avatar
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    That was a good thread. Glad you dug that up.

    I think it’s an H grip because your hands form an H with the SH thumb as the horizontal of the H.
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  9. #19
    Site Supporter Rex G's Avatar
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    My Take: Lower case “h” grip.

    My understanding: It is “h” grip, not the “H” grip. Lower case “h,” because of how it looks from above. See Oddl0t’s image, on the right, for the inverted lower-case “h.” The line of the forearm, hand, and extended index finger is the long, straight part of the “h.” The thumb forms the curved part of the “h.”

    With powerful ammo, this can wreck one’s thumb, hand, and wrist, relatively quickly, as I did with .44 Magnum in 1984-1985. I switched to 9mm from mid-March to some time in November, 1985, to recover, and then resumed using much smaller revolver grips, and a narrower, rounded-off trigger, and therefore a less-pronounced “h,” and .41 Magnum, for less joint-destroying recoil. By the early Nineties, I finally admitted to myself that I had K/L/GP100-sized hands and fingers, not N-Frame-sized hands and fingers.

    Edited to add: To be clear, we can disagree on H or h, and what each means.

    Yes, indeed, in hindsight, I do very much wish I had embraced the .357 Magnum, from the beginning. Like so many, in the mid-Eighties, I was a believer in Big Bores, for engaging erect bipedal opponents.
    Last edited by Rex G; 09-28-2019 at 09:18 PM.
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  10. #20
    Member TGS's Avatar
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    Interestingly, I used to flag my thumb like Clusterfrack when shooting my P2000 and P229, but now I curl it down when shooting my Glock 19.
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