Best budget Ar15?

[Suvorov]

Not a ding on Cheyenne but I’ve seen a lot of local PDs issue shitty, ARs without any real testing or consideration.

M&P15 does not automatically equal M&P15 Sport. In fairness to S&W their LE reps do try and steer depts to the M&P rifles vs the Sports. There are differences and S&W’s reps know there are actual reasons why the Sport is cheaper.

The Sport II does seem to be the best of the budget AR’s but that does not mean it’s suitable for LE duty use.

Even Depts that put some real effort into handgun selection will buy ARs strictly on price, brand loyalty, what the deputy chief likes (I.e. my deer rifle is a Ruger so the AR556 is the best AR) these are often the same depts running them as “pool rifles” because that what they did with the shotguns they replaced. I mean even the .MIL zeros rifles ......

I was surprised as well when my friend told me the department had bought them, but I saw them with my own eyes. Definitely get the feeling that price was the major factor, but I guess a budget AR is better than no patrol rifle despite the fact they still have a few US Government M16A1s. They also have a handful of Griffin ARs which I had never heard of but was a local manufacturer and I'm sure that had a lot to do with it. All that said, my friend (who is one of their firearms instructors) has said they have run just fine although I doubt they will likely ever see high round count.

I purchased an early M&P15 which may or may not have had some of the STAG parts that Smith was reportedly using while they were getting their AR line fully up to speed. It came from the factory with an out of spec lower receiver which required a trip back to the factory to get an replacement. After that - it has been a great gun giving me years of reliable range use as well as a CSAT class. I have since moved to fancier ARs but I still count it as a rifle I can trust.

My feeling on M&P and Sport models versus other budget ARs is the fact that given S&Ws place in the market a lot of their rifles get into the hands of LE and security contractors while other budget lines like PSA do not. So while the PSA guns may very will be as good as the M&Ps, they don't have the track record. They also may or may not be in the AR business in 20 years while it is probable that S&W will (not that that really matters with an AR anyhow).

FWIW

[BehindBlueI's]

The Sport II does seem to be the best of the budget AR’s but that does not mean it’s suitable for LE duty use.

Assuming an armorer's inspection, specifically why not?

If you are a patrol rifleman here and only shoot your duty gun at in-services, you'll shoot less than 500 rounds a year. You aren't going to wear one out in a 20 year career. I haven't seen them shaking themselves apart in the trunk, having unacceptable accuracy, etc.

[Jay Cunningham]

Yeah seriously a lot of LE guns don't seem to see so-called "hard use". I may start a new thread about that concept.

[ranger]

My definition of a budget AR is one that works (functions reliably, less than 2 inch groups at 100 yards with bulk M193 clone ammo) and is relatively cheap. I assume it will be used at a range for recreation 95% of the time and may be used for self-defense as an extremely unlikely opportunity.

I recently purchased a PSA upper with the 14.5 inch FN barrel (with pinned A2 to 16 inch). I added a generic charging handle and a PSA "better quality" BCG. I added a Vortex Viper PST Gen 1 1-4 scope as I believe in Low Power Variable Optics - no BUIS. Used a LMT lower I had on hand. Added a LAW folder as wanted short as possible without going SBR. So far, shooting very well with every type of 223/5.56 I fed it - mostly M193 and my 77 OTM reloads. I like it - a lot of nice features at a budget price. No regrets and would do this again.

I also have a complete PSA 16 inch carbine built with a "pencil" lightweight barrel - specifically bought to be light. Only fired a few hundred 55 FMJ so far but no issues.

I have multiple frankengun ARs that I build with cheapest parts on sale from AIM, PSA, Primary Arms so that I can try 6.8 SPC, 224 Valkyrie, 20 inch 223 for target, etc. They work. If I have an issue, it is ammo related with the boutique calibers. Most of my "cheap" ARs actually shoot vert good groups with my reloads.

I have a S&W M&P VTAC that is my better quality AR - it is the first gen carbine length gas VTAC.

I carried some form of AR for decades for the Army. They all worked. However, my need for a "world class" AR is over. I am confident my S&W M&P carbine would serve me well or the PSA "FN" build.

[HCM]

I was surprised as well when my friend told me the department had bought them, but I saw them with my own eyes. Definitely get the feeling that price was the major factor, but I guess a budget AR is better than no patrol rifle despite the fact they still have a few US Government M16A1s. They also have a handful of Griffin ARs which I had never heard of but was a local manufacturer and I'm sure that had a lot to do with it. All that said, my friend (who is one of their firearms instructors) has said they have run just fine although I doubt they will likely ever see high round count.

I purchased an early M&P15 which may or may not have had some of the STAG parts that Smith was reportedly using while they were getting their AR line fully up to speed. It came from the factory with an out of spec lower receiver which required a trip back to the factory to get an replacement. After that - it has been a great gun giving me years of reliable range use as well as a CSAT class. I have since moved to fancier ARs but I still count it as a rifle I can trust.

My feeling on M&P and Sport models versus other budget ARs is the fact that given S&Ws place in the market a lot of their rifles get into the hands of LE and security contractors while other budget lines like PSA do not. So while the PSA guns may very will be as good as the M&Ps, they don't have the track record. They also may or may not be in the AR business in 20 years while it is probable that S&W will (not that that really matters with an AR anyhow).

FWIW

I have an early M&P which won’t take original Pmags. It works fine with gen 2 and 3s, ARC mags and GI mags which is fine with. Smith actually has their TC subsidiary making their barrels. The M&Ps sometimes have assembly issues but they are better guns than they usually get credit for.

The problem with PSA is which one. A PSA premium with an FN barrel and a PTAC or freedom PSA are two completely different things. It’s like they are not even from the same company.

One is a good basic rifle and the other is a collection of othermakers scraps and seconds.

Their assembly has long been a “box of chocolates” proposition as well.

Now that PSA has their own barrel company and has started doing more in House their quality has seemed to improve over all but unless you know what you bought, it’s a crap shoot.

[HCM]

Assuming an armorer's inspection, specifically why not?

If you are a patrol rifleman here and only shoot your duty gun at in-services, you'll shoot less than 500 rounds a year. You aren't going to wear one out in a 20 year career. I haven't seen them shaking themselves apart in the trunk, having unacceptable accuracy, etc.

Armorer inspections are primarily to catch damage /wear and assembly errors. They don’t address materials and design issues like the chamber cut, gas port etc that can effect reliability.

I’m not a S&W hater but it’s like saying why waste money on M&P Pistols when an SD9 will do ? There are cops getting by with SD9s but it’s sub opitimal.

[BehindBlueI's]

Armorer inspections are primarily to catch damage /wear and assembly errors. They don’t address materials and design issues like the chamber cut, gas port etc that can effect reliability.

I’m not a S&W hater but it’s like saying why waste money on M&P Pistols when an SD9 will do ? There are cops getting by with SD9s but it’s sub opitimal.

I don't know how anyone else does it, of course. For us you have to either attend patrol rifle school with the rifle you want to carry or do a full day in-service with it. Maybe I just don't know what I don't know. I just see that if it gets through a 1k-ish round week or a 250-ish round day without shitting the bed, passes the inspection, and is kept reasonably well lubed I'm just not seeing them fail in the relatively cushy low-round-count life a patrol rifle leads. Our range staff tested and specifically approved them early on even when we had a matrix of approved personal weapons and the guys that have them aren't having issues at in-service or in the field.

Given that it took me 13 months to get my rifle back from the property room I can understand the appeal of a cheaper rifle. I am certainly not the only one who feels this way on my department and have had several others who went through similar experiences that put their high dollar Daniel Defense or what have you back in the safe and qualified on a more economical option. When new candidates for patrol rifle school ask my opinion, I usually give them the Sport II as the base line and recommend they buy whatever they can afford two of fully equipped with light, sling, and optic. I get the argument of "one Glock or three XXX" that was made earlier in the thread. It makes sense until your one Glock is in time out. In the immediate aftermath of a shooting you might not want to be bothered with procuring, zeroing, and vetting a replacement.

f you can afford better and want to invest in it, by all means. If you're in the 'high round count' club, by all means. For run of the mill patrol rifle use, I can only say we've seen good results.

[Darth_Uno]

Now we’re getting back to “the average home defender” type debates.

I’ve always had no problem with buying better gear than you “need” (or convincing myself that I need it). But most people, and probably departments, don’t need something that’s particularly durable, they need something that’s reliable. And by that I mean, they’re not going to wear parts out. They need something that’ll go bang up to 30 times in a row when they pull it out of the closet every two years.

I’ve joked that this is “cop grade”; something that might not get fired often, but needs to work when it’s time.

[deputyG23]

Yes, I provided a few to family members. DEF-15F's are want-to-be 6920's and don't fall under the Eagle Arms line. Armalite is batch testing components and the only thing they screwed the pooch on is staking the receiver extension castle nut which is an easy fix. Certainly a larger sample size would be better however, we put 1800 rounds through two guns in two days without issue. Armalite can build a solid rifle when they want to and it appears they are doing so with these. If someone is working on a limited budget these are worth a look.

I purchased one with the fixed front sight and after adding a BUIS, it has ran fine for about 500 rounds.
One of my Coast Guard armorer friends examined it and deemed it good.
For $476 OTD it serves my needs just fine.

[willie]

About 18 months ago an FN factory person told me that their AR sold on the commercial or civilian market is not made on the same line as their military or l.e. rifle. I inferred that the reason was to comply with licensing agreements in place permitting use of the technical data package. If true, then some might debate if the commercial model has 6920 quality. Of course, the FN could exceed it. Maybe?