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Thread: Standards for LEOs

  1. #1
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    Standards for LEOs

    Hey dudes.

    I've been working on some new material for our firearms unit and been trying to find some standards that we can hold the guys to. I've looked at and used some of the numbers from Scott Jedlinski's (Modern Samurai Project) Black Belt Patch Standards, but am also looking for other teams/squared away dudes that have standards for general drills. Seems like Gabe White's standards are pretty similar to Scott's.

    I know the FAST is good and I plan to incorporate it in some way, but I am looking for a variety of drills with times and standards, built for LEO's. I've looked through our "Drills, tests, and Practice" Sub forum and found a lot of info, but not a ton of full blown, standards with various drills and times for each.

    Any ideas or links?

    Thanks

  2. #2
    Member TGS's Avatar
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    You may want to check Pistol-training.com's drill section, which is still up.

    Me personal favs:

    LAV's "Test": Draw and fire 10 rounds, 10 seconds, 10 yards, on a B8 target. There are two different ways to grade it: Minimum 90/100 to pass, or all must be in the black (any round outside the black, regardless if the rest of X-ring hits, is an automatic fail). I think the common story (possibly incorrect) is that this was LAVs standard to be mission ready in CAG.

    Wilson 5x5:
    String 1: Draw and engage target with five rounds, two handed
    String 2: 5 rounds, SHO
    String 3: 5 rounds, reload from slide lock and 5 more rounds.
    String 4: 4 rounds to body, 1 to head.

    Add up your times for each string. Target is an IDPA at 10 yards. .5 second penalty for each round outside the -0 ring.

    Grand master: 0 - 15 Seconds
    Master: 16 - 20 Seconds
    Expert: 21 - 25 Seconds
    Sharpshooter: 26 - 32 Seconds
    Marksman: 33 - 41 seconds
    Novice: 42 - 50 seconds
    Over 50 Seconds: Not proficient enough to carry a gun.
    Last edited by TGS; 09-17-2019 at 02:32 PM.
    "Are you ready? Okay. Let's roll."- Last words of Todd Beamer

  3. #3
    Member Zincwarrior's Avatar
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    Our marksmanship team uses the old IDPA classifier (the 90 ish round one) to test. I do not know if thats appropriate to the use you are looking for.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by gskip View Post
    Hey dudes.

    I've been working on some new material for our firearms unit and been trying to find some standards that we can hold the guys to. I've looked at and used some of the numbers from Scott Jedlinski's (Modern Samurai Project) Black Belt Patch Standards, but am also looking for other teams/squared away dudes that have standards for general drills. Seems like Gabe White's standards are pretty similar to Scott's.

    I know the FAST is good and I plan to incorporate it in some way, but I am looking for a variety of drills with times and standards, built for LEO's. I've looked through our "Drills, tests, and Practice" Sub forum and found a lot of info, but not a ton of full blown, standards with various drills and times for each.

    Any ideas or links?

    Thanks
    This is a lay opinion, and is probably worth about what you paid for it.

    I like to think that most jurors are favorably disposed towards their local PD, but the PD has to give them something to hang that hat on.

    If I were on the jury and the PD was defending their firearms training syllabus with things like Black Belt Patch Standards, it would bias me against them, although I may have no idea what BBPS might be. For an institution to pick some currently popular gun guru or trendy drill and, in the years to come, trying to explain to the jury why they did so ("Cool name, bro, F.A.S.T!) might be more difficult then it first appears.

    On the other hand, were I on that same jury and the PD explained that their training program concluded with the same final tests used by Gunsite or FLETC (both with 40 or more years of institutional memory), I would be heavily inclined towards supporting the PD on the grounds that graduation drills for institutions like those mentioned constitute "best practices".

    It's the final test that counts, not the training details. Nobody is suggesting that the PD has to have the same ammo budget as FLETC.

    Like I said, it's worth what you paid for it.

  5. #5
    Site Supporter Hambo's Avatar
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    Failure drills. Send up the @Dagga Boy signal. He and Gabe White have time standards for failures.
    "Gunfighting is a thinking man's game. So we might want to bring thinking back into it."-MDFA

  6. #6
    I’m a big fan of the LAPD D-Platoon Qual. DB has posted it several times on various forums, including a variation used by the Leon County Sheriff SRT that used 3x5 cards and a sheet of copy paper as the targets. If you’re looking for something used by respected agencies, it’s tough to beat LAPD D-Platoon.
    My posts only represent my personal opinion and do not necessarily reflect the opinions or official policies of any employer, past or present. Obvious spelling errors are likely the result of an iPhone keyboard.

  7. #7
    Member rsa-otc's Avatar
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    South Central NJ
    Please define for me what your intent is with these "Standards". Are these just drills to be used for training or will they have some actual teeth attached, like desk duty/turn in your gun should they not meet the "Standards".

    If you are going to bring in more difficult "Standards" and hold their feet to the fire so to speak be prepared to spend significant training time leading up to the holding them to the "Standards". And still be prepared for push back from your Rank and File and most probably Sr Management. Especially if said Sr Management are armed and must meet those standards. The longer they have been away from an actual training course the louder the hollering is going to be.

    What I did to encourage folks was to come up with our handgun challenge with rewards attached should they meet certain goals. The lowest goal is a cert and their name on the "Wall of Fame". Next level is a $100 gift card, then a $200 gift card. At this point I have personnel fighting to get better and not bitching to me that I made it "TOO HARD".

    The Challenge:

    Number of Rounds: 6
    Targets: 1 – 8 inch Circle & 1 – 4 inch Circle
    Distance: 5 yards
    Gun & Gear: Must use duty weapon and normal duty gear
    Procedure: Start with holstered gun loaded with 3 rounds. Arms and hands relaxed at your side. Draw and fire 3 rounds to the 8 inch circle, reload and fire 3 rounds to the 4 inch circle.
    Scoring:
    • Passing attempts must be shot clean (all rounds hitting the circles) to count. -- Total Shot accountability.
    • Time limits must be met on 2 attempts during any training event; only 3 attempts may be made during any training event.
    • Holster & loading device retention must be engaged.
    • Semi-Auto Holsters that utilize only ALS or GLS retention add .5 seconds to each run.

    Revolvers:
    o Advanced – 2 runs @ or under – 15 seconds – Name on the wall of Fame
    o Expert – 2 runs @ or under – 12 seconds- $100 gift Card
    o Master – 2 runs Equal or better than Scott’s Time currently 7.4 seconds - $200 Gift Card

    Semi-Auto:
    o Advanced – 2 runs under – 12 seconds – Name on the wall of Fame
    o Expert – 2 runs under – 9 seconds - $100 gift Card
    o Master – 2 runs Equal or better 5.8 Seconds - $200 Gift Card
    Scott
    Only Hits Count - The Faster the Hit the more it Counts!!!!!!; DELIVER THE SHOT!
    Stephen Hillier - "An amateur practices until he can do it right, a professional practices until he can't do it wrong."

  8. #8
    Site Supporter
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    Midwest
    Random thoughts. I am at the edge of my lane.

    What is the goal?

    A. Is the goal to challenge them to become better shooters, bragging rights, cull the herd etc ?

    B. What happens to them if they cannot meet the "standards" you want to hold them to?
    C. How much time, talent and treasure can you/will you spend to get them up to "standard"
    D. Whats happens if they still do not meet it?

    other random thoughts-whatever your standards are to be, think about adding the following:

    1. All in to get the higher scoring value, if you even have to ask the question, you already know the answer
    2. A string in a standard that causes you drop something in your hand and move to cover/barricade
    3. A string in a standard that causes you to have fix a malfunction induced by a dummy round
    4. A string in a standard that has you going to slide lock, reloading and firing another 2 rounds in a smaller target area i.e. 5ish inch circle over the right shoulder of the target-trace a CD
    5. Consider a sliding scoring depending on assignment (swat/fugitive apprehension/firearms training staff v. patrol/investigations v. admin)

    My go to std every time I go to the range used to be 5 rounds on an 8 inch plate at 5 yrds from concealment x 3, stationary, moving left and moving right. 3 sec par. I used to be sub 2.85ish with a .40 and sub 2.65ish with a 9mm if it has been a while and sub 2.65ish with a 40/ sub 2.40ish with a 9 mm if I am doing what I should be doing. After considering Dobbs/Dagga et. al. I am strongly considering starting practice coming as close to 3 seconds without going over. I am going to start paying more attention to the first round time and then work on .33-.40 splits with 100% accuracy well within the plate. They have given me pause re shooting too fast at times.


    Once you get your "stds" down, shoot them for score until you have your baseline as the instructor,my WAG is that a good score from others will be 20%-50% slower than you.

    Again, I acknowledge I may be out of my lane.


    FWIW/YMMV







    FWIW/YMMV
    Last edited by vcdgrips; 09-17-2019 at 03:49 PM.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by gskip View Post
    Hey dudes.

    I've been working on some new material for our firearms unit and been trying to find some standards that we can hold the guys to. I've looked at and used some of the numbers from Scott Jedlinski's (Modern Samurai Project) Black Belt Patch Standards, but am also looking for other teams/squared away dudes that have standards for general drills. Seems like Gabe White's standards are pretty similar to Scott's.

    I know the FAST is good and I plan to incorporate it in some way, but I am looking for a variety of drills with times and standards, built for LEO's. I've looked through our "Drills, tests, and Practice" Sub forum and found a lot of info, but not a ton of full blown, standards with various drills and times for each.

    Any ideas or links?

    Thanks
    Regular cops or SWAT/Shooter cops ?

    Stuff I have run with our regular agents:

    - dot torture
    - Tom Givens Casino drill
    - the test 10tds, 10 yards, 10 seconds on a B8
    - The super test - 5//5/10, then 10/10/10 then 15, 15/10

    The rule of 3- two targets - each upper C zone only including the head. At 3 yards.
    3 second per run, go until you miss or don’t make time.
    1 rd target 1 body
    2 rd target 1 body
    2 rd body target 1, 1 rd body target 2
    2 and 2
    2, 2 and one to head of target 2
    2, 2,1,1

    Start from the ready.

  10. #10
    Site Supporter Trooper224's Avatar
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    An additional thought: are there penalties and/or discipline for officers who don't meet these standards? Something that will be enforced by your upper chain of command? If there aren't, you're wasting your time.
    We may lose and we may win, but we will never be here again.......

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