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Thread: In 2019 - It's okay to not have BUIS on your defensive AR

  1. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by MistWolf View Post
    When looking through a scope, the scope projects an image of the object. When you look through an Aimpoint (or simple pane of glass or with nothing between the eye and the object) your eye sees the object, not a projected image. A 1x optic projects an image of the object at a 1:1 ratio. A 0x "optic" does not project an image.
    1X scopes are never truly 1X.. That's where the rub lies. They are always magnified a little bit.

  2. #52
    Deadeye Dick Clusterfrack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MistWolf View Post
    When looking through a scope, the scope projects an image of the object. When you look through an Aimpoint (or simple pane of glass or with nothing between the eye and the object) your eye sees the object, not a projected image. A 1x optic projects an image of the object at a 1:1 ratio. A 0x "optic" does not project an image.
    I get what you're trying to say. The accepted terminology for lenses is:

    Simple: single lens
    Compound: multiple lenses
    Complex: multiple lens groups

    This is independent of the magnification and other properties of the lens. No lens can have zero magnification. What you're saying about "projected" image also isn't strictly correct. All images through a conventional lens system originate from light "rays" from the object, regardless of how many elements are in the lens (unless you have a mirror, or diffractive optics (like in the EOTech)).
    "You can never have too many knives." --Joe Ambercrombie
    Shabbat shalom, motherf***ers! --Mordechai Jefferson Carver

  3. #53
    Site Supporter Hambo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clusterfrack View Post
    I get what you're trying to say. The accepted terminology for lenses is:

    Simple: single lens
    Compound: multiple lenses
    Complex: multiple lens groups

    This is independent of the magnification and other properties of the lens. No lens can have zero magnification. What you're saying about "projected" image also isn't strictly correct. All images through a conventional lens system originate from light "rays" from the object, regardless of how many elements are in the lens (unless you have a mirror, or diffractive optics (like in the EOTech)).
    I think I understand what you're saying, but I realize now that I just look through glass without knowing a damn thing about it. Care to explain more? Don't worry about talking down to me. In fact, you should probably make it caveman easy to understand.
    "Gunfighting is a thinking man's game. So we might want to bring thinking back into it."-MDFA

  4. #54
    Member olstyn's Avatar
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    I think I finally get where @MistWolf's terminology problem is coming from - he's trying to say "zero magnification" when he says "0x." Of course, @Clusterfrack and I interpreted that in math terms and thought "that's completely, impossibly wrong," which of course it is, because zero magnification is 1x, and 0.5x would be a pretty extreme fisheye/wide angle lens, with 0x being physically impossible (again, divide by zero error), but conceptually something akin to a spherical panorama originating at a single point of zero size. All that "math stuff" aside, if we leave aside the terminology error (hard to do for those of us with pedantic bent, sorry!), it's clear that as clusterfrack said, Mistwolf is just talking about the difference between simple and complex lenses. Hard to have a meaningful conversation when we don't start from the same place in terms of what the terms we're using mean, but maybe we can try again, and if we're lucky, we'll all learn something.

  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by BehindBlueI's View Post
    That's surprising to me.

    We have to qual with both irons and optics at each in-service.
    I made my guys do this when we fielded EOTech's.
    "It's surprising how often you start wondering just how featureless a desert some people's inner landscapes must be."
    -Maple Syrup Actual

  6. #56
    I watched an Aimpoint Comp M4 mount fail in the middle of a qual range where the optic wasn't firmly locked down into place. Not sure what made it fail, I just know the soldier was not hitting squat and when I looked it over the optic was loose and would not lock into place if you twisted until the click, like normal. The Comp M4 is probably the most bombproof red dot I've ever seen and it failed. I don't blame the optic, I'm sure it took plenty of abuse. If you gave Joe four bowling balls, he'd lose one, break one, knock one up and marry the fourth to get out of the barracks... Shit happens, stuff breaks and Murphy gets a vote. I like having a plan B.

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    Last edited by VT1032; 10-06-2019 at 08:36 PM.

  7. #57
    Member TXBK's Avatar
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    If your primary sight runs off batteries and your intended purpose for the rifle is for self-defense, zeroed backup sights are mandatory. The proof of this for me and my primary rifle has already proven itself to me. While it wasn’t used in self defense, it was used in “property” defense. In this case, I encountered a wild hog, and hogs had been fucking up my grass. I pulled my rifle from its normal carry position, and the battery on my T1 was dead. I flipped up my KAC BUIS and took care of the problem. It was a harmless instance that proved to me that BUIS aren’t just for show.
    Last edited by TXBK; 10-06-2019 at 10:23 PM.

  8. #58
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    I get the arguments for not running BUIS, and Frank Proctor made a case for it. But ultimately I found the arguments supporting BUIS to be more convincing.

    Tried running an offset Aimpoint for a while as backup or CQB alternative on a rifle running a 2.5-10x optic. Ran into one instance in rainy cold conditions (PNW), the scope fogged AND the Aimpoint fogged. My profound takeaway was: if climate/temp conditions can mess with one optic, they can mess with the other one.

    Even as a civilian I still run inline/folded BUIS on any carbine that is potential SD/HD use. Also considered trying offset BUIS, for more immediate access vs having to rip a QD optic and flip up the BUIS. Interested to hear if a lot of folks are running offset BUIS, and if it's worth the hassle to upgrade from inline BUIS.

  9. #59
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    If you follow Best Practices and sound training doctrine.

    We carry a Primary Handgun (Hopefully an Actual Fighting Handgun) many times with RDS and a Compensator and a reload or reloads for it.

    We carry back up guns and reloads for them.

    We Carry blades, usually more than one.

    We carry Tourniquets Quik Clot or the like and any number of Multi tools etc.

    Yet people get wrapped around the axle about a few ounces or the cost of a BUIS.

    Yes I teach using the window of the Optic as a large Ghost Ring and it works quite well, however at a longer distance I think a set of properly installed and zeroed BUIS is pretty cheap insurance.

    YMMV Just my 2 cents.
    Be Aware-Stay Safe. Gunfighting Is A Thinking Man's Game. So We Might Want To Bring Thinking Back Into It.

  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Whitlock View Post
    I made my guys do this when we fielded EOTech's.
    I did the same with my guys and gals.
    Be Aware-Stay Safe. Gunfighting Is A Thinking Man's Game. So We Might Want To Bring Thinking Back Into It.

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