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Thread: Compact and Lightweight, Scout-like, .308 Bolt Gun

  1. #251
    Site Supporter Rex G's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flashman View Post
    It is important to consider Jeff Cooper as product of his time but most importantly as the father of modern personal defense pistol shooting as well as bringing together and codifying rifle technique. I bought a copy of The Art of the Rifle when first published and it was a bit of a let down. There was nothing new it but at that time I was devouring everything Cooper had written. In years since when I pick it up I am amazed at how well written it is but also how insightful. Funny that my perception should change so much over time. The book is about the of shooting a rifle, not a particular rifle although the Scout Rifle is prominently featured. Kyle Lamb's book is also a great book but more fundamentally about the AR as a weapon system and clearly moves beyond Cooper in positional techniques, something rather absent in most rifle literature. In fact, the biggest downside to his book are that pages detach from the binding creating a real mess every time it is opened.

    Cooper couldn't get over the poddle shooter label but as the AR platform evolved, the bare bones 16 inch AR with a red dot seems to me to be the perfect Scout Rifle because it seems to satisfy virtually all but one of the requirements (Cooper's preference was for a hunting based Scout Rifle in a medium sized game animal caliber).
    There are “states,” in this Union, where AR15-like rifles are banned. There are entire countries where one cannot hope to own any autoloader, or, where ownership is possible, but one cannot use auto-loaders in a hunting context.

    The forward-mounted, intermediate-eye-relief, fixed-power scope is no longer such an advantage, as variables have become more durable, and, the brightness of normally-located scopes has gotten better.

    Both books reflected forward thinking, each in its time. Let us keep in mind that Col. Cooper was promoting a low squatting position, which he called the “rice paddy” something, when most pundits were preaching only prone, sitting, kneeling, and the standing positions. (Sorry, most of my books that survived the last move, and then Hurricane Harvey, are in storage, so not available to confirm terminology.)

    I would say that neither author is irrelevant. The AR user can benefit from some of the principles and philosophy in _Art of the Rifle_, and the turn-bolt folks should study Kyle Lamb.

    Edited to add: I reckon that I fall more into the category of folks who appreciate the “lightweight practical rifle” more that the original “scout rifle” concept. The only turn-bolt rifle I presently own is a Winchester Safari Express, so I have not yet fully “arrived,” in either category.
    Last edited by Rex G; 05-30-2020 at 12:56 PM.
    Retar’d LE. Kinesthetic dufus.

    Don’t tread on volcanos!

  2. #252
    Quote Originally Posted by Flashman View Post
    It is important to consider Jeff Cooper as product of his time but most importantly as the father of modern personal defense pistol shooting as well as bringing together and codifying rifle technique. I bought a copy of The Art of the Rifle when first published and it was a bit of a let down. There was nothing new it but at that time I was devouring everything Cooper had written. In years since when I pick it up I am amazed at how well written it is but also how insightful. Funny that my perception should change so much over time. The book is about the of shooting a rifle, not a particular rifle although the Scout Rifle is prominently featured. Kyle Lamb's book is also a great book but more fundamentally about the AR as a weapon system and clearly moves beyond Cooper in positional techniques, something rather absent in most rifle literature. In fact, the biggest downside to his book are that pages detach from the binding creating a real mess every time it is opened.

    Cooper couldn't get over the poddle shooter label but as the AR platform evolved, the bare bones 16 inch AR with a red dot seems to me to be the perfect Scout Rifle because it seems to satisfy virtually all but one of the requirements (Cooper's preference was for a hunting based Scout Rifle in a medium sized game animal caliber).
    I believe that Cooper is still relevant for several reasons.
    • He founded the first shooting school, which made training a viable profession outside of military and law-enforcement organizations.
    • As one of the founders of IPSC, he was the driving force behind practical shooting competition as we know it today.
    • The combination of access to shooting schools and practical competition let ordinary citizens become superb practical shooters who started finding new ways to solve problems. Many of the resulting innovations started showing up in elite military units, then came back to the civilian world as people left those units and started training civilians.
    • His method of articulating a problem then finding ways to solve it within a certain set of parameters—as with the Scout rifle concept—showed shooters a new way of solving problems. This shifted the focus from relatively minor ballistic improvements, which benefit manufacturers, to the launcher itself and to the skill required to use it well.

    So he’s still relevant, but in ways that we take for granted because they’ve become cornerstones of our craft and the industries that surround it.


    Okie John
    Last edited by okie john; 05-30-2020 at 07:26 PM.
    “The reliability of the 30-06 on most of the world’s non-dangerous game is so well established as to be beyond intelligent dispute.” Finn Aagaard
    "Don't fuck with it" seems to prevent the vast majority of reported issues." BehindBlueI's

  3. #253
    Site Supporter Rex G's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rex G View Post
    Interesting! I did not know that he was, or may have been, cross-eye-dominant. I am left-eye-dominant, and had noticed that I could use a good scout scope reasonably well, from the right shoulder, without having to totally shut my left eye, whereas using a conventional scope quickly, and well, with both eyes open, required that I shoot from the left shoulder.

    My “good” scout scout, I mean Leupold, as opposed to a cheaper off-brand. I could only do this with a Leupold Scout Scope.

    Because I normally shoot rifles lefty, and so few left-hand scout rifles have been build with left-hand actions, I have not (yet) bought a scout rifle.
    Last week, I handled a pre-owned Steyr Scout, with a Leupold Scout ‘scope mounted, at an LGS, and re-confirmed that a forward-mounted, moderate-power, intermediate/long-eye-relief ‘scope still works well for me, when the weapon is used right-handed, even though I am left-eye-dominant, and best use conventional ‘scopes, and aperture sights, lefty. So, for me, a right-handed scout rifle would be practical, which simplifies the selection process. If I decided that a lightweight practical rifle, with a concentional-eye-relief ‘scope, is the better option, well, a lefty Tikka is the easy choice.

    I can only speculate whether this eye-dominance factor, with scout scopes, would be as true for anyone else, as it is, in my case. I have read about “incomplete” eye dominance, and while the information has faded with time, I remember that I may have at least one or two symptoms/indications of incomplete eye dominance.

    It is not like shooting right-handed is clumsy, for me, as I shot long guns, with open sights, right-handed, for a number of years, before I learned that I was left-eye-dominant, and should use ‘scoped and peep/aperture sighted rifles lefty.
    Retar’d LE. Kinesthetic dufus.

    Don’t tread on volcanos!

  4. #254
    Site Supporter Rex G's Avatar
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    Open-Sight Turn-Bolt Rifles

    I find myself liking some open-sight bolt guns, such as the Sako Bavarian and Black Bear, and, potentially the Tikka Battue. (An LGS has the Bavarian, with, IIRC, a 20” barrel, but I have yet to see or handle a Tikka Battue.) The Sako open sights seem to do well when I use either my right or left shoulder, which may be because I may have “incomplete” eye dominance. (I do best with scopes and peep sights in lefty mode, as I am left-eye dominant.)

    Of course, I have two Browning BLR rifles, one a Takedown, both .308 Winchester, so the “need” for an open-sight turn-bolt is not urgent. I think that I like the higher-profile Sako open sights better, however, and extraction of fired cases is a more-sure thing with turn-bolts.

    So, this gives me something else to consider, as the end of the month approaches, starting a new quarter’s budget.
    Retar’d LE. Kinesthetic dufus.

    Don’t tread on volcanos!

  5. #255
    Here’s my latest attempt at this concept.



    A little over a year ago, I bought a Remington Model 700 ADL Package Rifle (https://www.remington.com/rifles/bol...ynthetic-scope). I replaced the bases with Nikon Weaver-style bases, then started testing cheap factory loads. Remington 150-grain CoreLokt ammo and Winchester 150-grain Power Points both went sub-MOA with velocities over 2,800 fps, so I was happy. I wanted to make as few mods as possible, but I also wanted a shorter barrel, better groups if I could get them, and the ability to shoot with a tight sling without the POI shifting.

    I was referred to Brett Evans of NW Armswerkes (https://www.facebook.com/pages/categ...3136081456406/) so I had him cut the barrel to 22”, bed it into an HS Precision stock, and provide factory BDL-style bottom metal. He also determined that this rifle was actually chambered for 7.62 NATO and that grinding 0.005” off of the recoil lung would make it a 308 as marked. 12 days later he called and told me that the work was done.
    • With bases but without optics, it weighs 6.92 pounds as opposed to 6.51 before (and the 6.3 of a Tikka) and the balance is a bit farther aft.
    • Weight with a 4x Leupold (shown) is 7 pounds, 11 ounces—heavier than a lot of options but it balances well. It's also easier to shoot well than a flyweight.
    • About 2/3 of the barrel lettering is below the stock line due to the recoil lug modification. Not ideal but not a deal breaker.
    • I can definitely feel the shorter chamber—closing the bolt on RP factory cartridges reveals a very snug fit that wasn't there before, and I can’t close the bolt at all on some handloads that were a snug fit before.

    It shoots better in initial load testing but I’m not the guy to get the most out of it from the bench. It doesn't shoot the 150-grain PowerPoint load as well now, but it does still shoot fairly well with 150-grain CoreLokts.







    This rifle is more accurate than I can hold and powerful enough for anything I can afford to hunt, so I really like it.

    But this thread is costing me a lot of money.


    Okie John
    “The reliability of the 30-06 on most of the world’s non-dangerous game is so well established as to be beyond intelligent dispute.” Finn Aagaard
    "Don't fuck with it" seems to prevent the vast majority of reported issues." BehindBlueI's

  6. #256
    This rifle continues to make me happy. Made these groups yesterday with a 4x Leupold shooting off of bags.



    I notice that I frequently get two shots touching (or almost touching) plus a flyer that opens the group, perhaps because I haven't adjusted the trigger since I bought this rifle and it still has a fair amount of creep. It's also a little heavier than I'd like, probably about four pounds. I’ve been talking with Brett about this; I may have him reduce the creep and get it down to about 2.5 pounds.

    Scenar loads are from Creedmoor Sports

    155-grain: https://www.creedmoorsports.com/product/2483/Ammunition

    167-grain: https://www.creedmoorsports.com/prod...750/Ammunition

    All the others are 150-grain factory loads that you can get at any big-box store.

    Per my notes, the round count is 552 since I bought this rifle. I cleaned it today, 156 rounds after the last cleaning, and it only took three patches with Sweets to get it clean.


    Okie John
    “The reliability of the 30-06 on most of the world’s non-dangerous game is so well established as to be beyond intelligent dispute.” Finn Aagaard
    "Don't fuck with it" seems to prevent the vast majority of reported issues." BehindBlueI's

  7. #257
    Site Supporter Totem Polar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rex G View Post
    I find myself liking some open-sight bolt guns, such as the Sako Bavarian and Black Bear, and, potentially the Tikka Battue. (An LGS has the Bavarian, with, IIRC, a 20” barrel, but I have yet to see or handle a Tikka Battue.)
    There is a .308 Sako Bavarian carbine at my friendly LGS right how. It’s giving me night sweats. What a lovely and quality piece.
    Attached Images Attached Images  

  8. #258
    Quote Originally Posted by Totem Polar View Post
    There is a .308 Sako Bavarian carbine at my friendly LGS right how. It’s giving me night sweats. What a lovely and quality piece.
    If I bought that, I would have to dress better when I was out hunting. Tweed and shit.
    I was into 10mm Auto before it sold out and went mainstream, but these days I'm here for the revolver and epidemiology information.

  9. #259
    Quote Originally Posted by Totem Polar View Post
    There is a .308 Sako Bavarian carbine at my friendly LGS right how. It’s giving me night sweats. What a lovely and quality piece.
    Do it! They're beautiful and elegant! I love my Steyr .243!!
    -All views expressed are those of the author and do not reflect those of the author's employer-

  10. #260
    Site Supporter OlongJohnson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Totem Polar View Post
    There is a .308 Sako Bavarian carbine at my friendly LGS right how. It’s giving me night sweats. What a lovely and quality piece.
    I talked myself out of Sako drool thusly:

    They don't actually have the security of a true controlled round feed like a pre-'63 Winchester, or even a Ruger. And they also don't have the "three rings of steel" when in battery like a Rem 700, Tikka, Howa, and other push-feed guns.

    I still kinda like them, but I'm OK with Tikkas for now.
    .
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    Not another dime.

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