Compact and Lightweight, Scout-like, .308 Bolt Gun

[1911Nut]

Thank you much!

Very nice set up indeed! And I just looked it up and these are a lot more economical to buy then what I remember! It looks like I could get one for around 1599-1699.

Hmm...at this point I'm starting to think that it may either be the Tikka or the Steyr.

I don't see any 10 round mag options for the Steyr Scout, are there any?

I have zero experience with them, but at one time, a "Steyr SBS Pro Hunter/Scout 10 Round .308 Winchester Magazine" was available. Currently, they are shown as being for sale on the "Cheaper than Dirt" website.

I would be concerned that the handling qualities (one of it's most desirable attributes) of the Steyr Scout might be compromised with use of this magazine, but that's just me.

In 2011, I participated in a "Scout Rifle" class at Gunsite in Paulden, AZ

During that class, I got through it just fine using three 5-round Steyr Scout magazines. (One in the rifle magazine well, one in the magazine storage receptacle in the buttstock, and one in a magazine carrier on my belt).

[imp1295]

I too read the scout rifle thread back and forth. Had similar requirements as you and settled on a 308, Model 70 featherweight compact, with a Leupold VX-5, 1-5.

It’s a great rifle. I also own a T3X in 7-08, I wanted to have the ability to load without the mag. This was mainly influenced by experience of others at a Randy Cain class. I confirmed those observations on my own between the two rifles. Not an issue for ME in a hung situation, but may matter in other applications.

Good luck!


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[GJM]

Another, albeit price option:

https://www.eurooptic.com/Christense...-03001-00.aspx

Christensen Arms Modern Precision Rifle .308 Win 16" 1:10" Black 801-03001-00
SKU 801-03001-00-CA



Attachment 42689

I was intrigued by this rifle. Reading threads, there is apparently some angst over C Arms customer service, and a pretty good chance the rifle wil need a trip back. The action felt rough, but that apparently improves with use. A buddy used one goat hunting on Kodiak, and kept having the magazine fall out hiking in rough terrain. That last issue seemed like a big deal to me.

[DacoRoman]

Jeff Cooper wasn't wrong, but that Scout Rifle concept of his was also what......50-60 years ago?

If you're set on the Tikka T3 Compact Lite, they have that rifle in 6.5 Creedmoor. Lower recoil, flatter trajectory, higher sectional density. It's better in virtually every way. The 308 isn't ubiquitous or famous because of its merit, but rather because a bunch of dumbasses in the 50s who paid lip-service to the intermediate cartridge concept but in reality wanted a full power .30" rifle round and forced it on NATO when everyone knew back then there were better options as well. It's a mediocre cartridge, and for shooting 600-800 yards is not the gold standard. It can do it, but it in no way excels at it compared to a number of other cartridges these days.

As for cost, yeah the average cost for 308 is about a quarter lower per round than 6.5 Creedmoor considering all the military FMJ service ammo out there.....but so what? Are you running an entry carbine, F/A sear host, or a bolt action rifle? Concentrating on the cost of the ammo for a bolt action rifle (especially one with such particular goals as yours) is penny-wise/pound foolish, especially when you consider that the premium cartridges are about the same. Premium cartridges for 6.5 Creedmoor go from $.70-1.45, about the same for premium 308. You're not going to be blasting away tons of ammo through the gun, buy the better round for the mission.

As for LPVO, okay, makes sense, but that charging bear scenario wasn't in your otherwise clearly stated goals for the rifle. FWIW, that's going to require carrying the rifle at all times in 1x, instead of in the power you're actually using for hunting.

Good, albeit a bit cranky , but good counterpoint.

In my mind 6.5C really gave the most benefits when considering, say 400-1200yard shooting.

However I've just done some reading up on it, and it does appear that it is better pretty much at any range in comparison to .308W.

However I will say that from what I'm reading, the difference is still there, but not nearly as significant, when considering shooting out to 500-600 yards.

About the only negative things I read about the 6.5C is that it will wear barrels out faster than .308, not as big a deal in the world of the lower volume of fire bolt guns, I'm thinking. And that .308 is still cheaper and more ubiquitous, as we already knew.

Now, my issue is still one of convenience and practicality. I already have an LMT MWS in .308. I already have a nice amount of IMI 175gr match grade ammo for the LMT that I could happily use in any new .308 bolt gun I would get. The ability to also source and shoot bulk ammo is also a big plus for me.

I am not sure that the modest improvement in ballistics to 500-600 yards that I'd get with a Creedmoor is worth the downgrade in practicality for me, at least at this point.
If I didn't have another .308, I would be tempted to consider a Creedmoor, for sure.

I may still change my mind, as my scout-like rifle will be a relatively low volume of fire weapon for me, and it wouldn't be that hard to stock some 6.5C ammo for my intended use. However it is nice to be able to use the same ammo in two different arms for sure, at least it is for me, as I'm a practical SOB, to a fault maybe.

So, I'll likely go with .308, and you know what, if I get the Creedmoor bug, I could always re-barrel. I could re-barrel for 6.5C even with my MWS. I could get a stainless match grade 6.5C LMT barrel for it that I could change myself. I'm not sure about a Tikka or the Steyr, how easy or lack thereof it is to re-barrel one of those, but I can't imagine that it would be that hard.

Anyway, great points, they certainly helped crystallize my thoughts.

If anyone else has thoughts on .308 vs 6.5C, send it!

[DacoRoman]

I have zero experience with them, but at one time, a "Steyr SBS Pro Hunter/Scout 10 Round .308 Winchester Magazine" was available. Currently, they are shown as being for sale on the "Cheaper than Dirt" website.

I would be concerned that the handling qualities (one of it's most desirable attributes) of the Steyr Scout might be compromised with use of this magazine, but that's just me.

In 2011, I participated in a "Scout Rifle" class at Gunsite in Paulden, AZ

During that class, I got through it just fine using three 5-round Steyr Scout magazines. (One in the rifle magazine well, one in the magazine storage receptacle in the buttstock, and one in a magazine carrier on my belt).

That Steyr does look really slick and handy as is for sure. The 5 round mag isn't a deal breaker for me, especially with the cool feature of the extra mag in the stock. I probably wouldn't dick around with magazine adapters and such if I went with it.

Did you do a lot of top loading in that class? I am not sure if the Tikka CTR top loads or not, I need to look into this.

What other type of scout rifles where there in the class, and how did they do? How did the students have their scopes mounted, scout like, or back on the receiver?

Seeing as how I'm in AZ I definitely would love to take that Scout Rifle class..but first I need a Scout-like rifle.

[DacoRoman]

I too read the scout rifle thread back and forth. Had similar requirements as you and settled on a 308, Model 70 featherweight compact, with a Leupold VX-5, 1-5.

It’s a great rifle. I also own a T3X in 7-08, I wanted to have the ability to load without the mag. This was mainly influenced by experience of others at a Randy Cain class. I confirmed those observations on my own between the two rifles. Not an issue for ME in a hung situation, but may matter in other applications.

Good luck!


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Do you mean single round top loading? The T3X can't single round top load? I'm wondering if the Tikka CTR can. That is a great point to bring up.

EDIT: I'm totally going to check out the Model 70 FW compact; what barrel length?

[HCM]

I was intrigued by this rifle. Reading threads, there is apparently some angst over C Arms customer service, and a pretty good chance the rifle wil need a trip back. The action felt rough, but that apparently improves with use. A buddy used one goat hunting on Kodiak, and kept having the magazine fall out hiking in rough terrain. That last issue seemed like a big deal to me.

I’ve heard they are hit or miss in terms of QC.

Plus with the light weight I would rather have one in 6.5C.

[1911Nut]

That Steyr does look really slick and handy as is for sure. The 5 round mag isn't a deal breaker for me, especially with the cool feature of the extra mag in the stock. I probably wouldn't dick around with magazine adapters and such if I went with it.

Did you do a lot of top loading in that class? I am not sure if the Tikka CTR top loads or not, I need to look into this.

What other type of scout rifles where there in the class, and how did they do? How did the students have their scopes mounted, scout like, or back on the receiver?

Seeing as how I'm in AZ I definitely would love to take that Scout Rifle class..but first I need a Scout-like rifle.

I don't recall any prescribed top loading in that class, but it's been a while. I do remember using top loading ("shoot one, load one") technique when we shot the "Scrambler" drill, with quite a bit of shooting and movement between individual shots.

I looked back in my old records and found an AAR I submitted to another forum that I used to participate in regularly. Here it is:




I recently returned from the “Scout Rifle Class” conducted at Gunsite on April 25-27. While I have obtained previous training at Gunsite and other locations with the pistol, shotgun, and carbine, this was my very first training of any kind with a rifle.

I thought I would share my experiences to the best of my recollection with the list. Most of the list members have far more rifle experience than I will undoubtedly ever acquire for the balance of my life, so bear with me (or hit the “Delete” key) if the report is boring, too low-level, or redundant.

This was the first rifle class ever conducted at Gunsite that was conducted exclusively for the “scout” configuration rifle. The class was three days in duration and there were no grades provided. Students who successfully completed the course were provided with a “Certificate of Training”, exactly as was done in the first (and I believe only) “Pistol Tune Up” class Gunsite conducted in May 2009, that I also attended.

Instructors were Il Ling New (Rangemaster) and Mario Marchman.

There were eight shooters from seven states enrolled in the class. States represented were: Alaska, California, Oregon, Arizona, New Mexico, Kansas, and Ohio. In addition to me, there was only one additional student in attendance who had no previous rifle training experience. Several of the shooters had completed 270 Rifle, Precision Rifle, Hunter Prep (and perhaps additional) classes at Gunsite, and all had trained previously under the tutelage of Il Ling. Three or four of the shooters were what I choose to call “serious” riflemen, with extensive experience. One gentleman had never owned a rifle in his life until he purchased the Scout Rifle approximately six months before the class.

Firearms were:
4 Steyr Scouts all in caliber .308 Winchester
1 Savage Scout in caliber .308 Winchester
1 Ruger Scout in caliber .308 Winchester
1 custom-built Winchester Model 70 Scout in caliber .308 Winchester
1 Browning BLR Scout in caliber .450 Marlin

The weather turned out to be a challenge at times, but did not interfere with the learning experience or the fun. While temperatures were pleasant (low 40’s in the morning and high 60’s in the afternoon), we experienced quite windy conditions on Monday and Tuesday, especially Tuesday, when the wind seldom slowed below 25 MPH and was frequently gusting to 40 or more MPH. A couple of times, wind gusts snapped the wooden support legs off the targets and they all had to be rebuilt. This contributed to a renewed interest (at least on my part) in the proper use of the Ching sling when shooting from prone and intermediate positions.

As has always been my experience at Gunsite, safety was of the utmost importance and was constantly stressed and enforced by Il Ling and Mario. There were no major issues that occurred to my knowledge, and the safety reminder that I heard repeated most often was when Il Ling and Mario reminded students to keep their rifles slung properly.

Since I was doing my best to maximize my learning experience, I didn’t keep a journal of events in the order they transpired, so as I describe some of the class activities, they will not appear in the order they occurred.

The first morning we spent classroom time reviewing equipment, carry methods, shooting basics, safety rules, and some shooting basics.

A significant amount of time was spent shooting from field positions at 100 and 200 yards to confirm zero. Two shooters had a few problems, but they were corrected with some attention. The Ruger Scout shooter’s issue turned out to be weapon-related, and I will touch on that subject in a bit. Most everyone else seemed to make only minor adjustments to their optics, if any. I personally cranked in one MOA to the left and one MOA “up” on my Leupold Scout Scope after shooting at 200 yards.

We spent time shooting at 25 to 50 yards from standing position, with shooter movement built into the exercises. We began with single shots on target, then moved to two shots, then three, from various positions. At times, single targets were engaged, and at time two targets were engaged. We learned to engage targets from slung position, from “high ready” position, and from “low ready” position. I had always carried a rifle when hunting in the field in the “American Carry” position, but quickly adapted to the “European Carry”, as I found it easiest to acquire and dismount, and felt I had better control of the rifle from that position.

A bit of time was spent reviewing movement while maintaining the fighting stance and balance, as I am familiar with from pistol, shotgun, and carbine training. Several drills were conducted on moving targets, as well as steel pepper popper targets at ranges varying from 25 to 50 yards on the movers and out to 300 yards on the steel targets. All the shooters were able to consistently achieve “vital zone” hits on the targets out to 200 yards, and almost everyone could keep all their shots on the target (although not necessarily in the “vital zone”) when the range was increased to 300 yards. Personally, I was surprised at my ability to achieve this level of accuracy with a 2.5X long eye relief scope. Others were probably not so surprised at their shooting abilities. Students were all encouraged to shoot with both eyes open so they could take advantage of the low magnification and extended eye relief afforded by the Scout design.

The most enjoyable part of the course for me (and I think for most are all of the other students) was shooting the “Scrambler”. We all shot it on Tuesday and again on Wednesday. It was on the Wednesday run on the “Scrambler” that I managed to outsmart myself when it came to tactics. I decided that since I was not going to set any speed records on the course that I would “shoot one, load one”, performing the load between shooting stations. I loaded up with six rounds and popped the magazine in the Scout down to the second detent to allow me to facilitate this strategy.

I then proceeded to shoot the first target, run the bolt, forget to load one and dropped the firing pin on an empty chamber at the next shooting station. At which point I opened the bolt, single loaded a round, shot the second target, moved to the next shooting position while again running the bolt without single loading a round of ammunition so I was met with a second “click” at the next shooting station. This time I regained my composure, performed a “slap, rack, bang” malfunction drill and proceeded through the remainder of the drill with no further drama. Quite embarrassing, and a lesson I am certain I will not forget. Glad it happened on the “Scrambler” at Gunsite instead of during a situation in which something was shooting back at me or when a 180 class mule deer was providing me with an opportunity to shoot.

To the best of my knowledge, here are the issues that were experienced with the rifles in this class:

The shooter of the BLR had quite a bit of trouble achieving zero when we first got started, but eventually was able to get things lined out. I am not certain what the issue was, but it seemed to take a bit of time to get ironed out. I think this shooter also had a bit of minor problem with the trigger mechanism, but I am not certain. As a side note, this shooter was shooting 325 grain Hornady bullets in handloads. He used two different power levels of ammo. He said his light loads were getting 1900 FPS and his heavy loads were achieving 2100 FPS. He was an excellent shooter.

The Savage Scout completely quit working just before lunch on the second day (would not fire). The shooter took it to the gunsmith during lunch where they found that the sear engagement was incorrect. Not certain of the details. He had no more problems with that rifle.

One Steyr Scout experienced a separated case head on a round of reloaded ammunition brought by the shooter. No issue with the rifle, and the rifle was returned to service immediately after the piece of separated brass was removed from the chamber.

The Ruger Scout had a loose scope mounting rail – found the mounting screws only finger tight. Obviously, the shooter had a lot of problem getting zero until this issue was identified and corrected. The Ruger shooter also (in my opinion) experienced a great bit of difficulty in achieving good sling position when assuming field shooting positions due to that huge extended Ruger magazine. It just seemed to be in the way during many of the exercises. The shooter indicated that he liked his Ruger Frontier without the detachable magazine better than he liked his Scout. As another personal observation, the Ruger Scout ejected brass farther than any other magazine fed bolt action rifle I have ever personally witnessed. And with authority. I am aware of this because there were several occasions when empty cases from this rifle bounced off my ear, head, and rifle, as I was shooting immediately to the right of the Ruger Scout shooter.

One of the Steyr Scout rifles would not allow the operator to perform the “shoot one, load one” drill. The instructors attempted the same with this particular rifle, and the rifle simply would not allow one to drop a round in and close the bolt. The ammo was changed and different methodologies were applied for several minutes, but it simply would not feed a singly loaded round. The shooter took this rifle to the gunsmith during lunch break on the second day, and they were unable to correct this condition. When I inquired about what was discussed during the gunsmith visit, the shooter told me that the gunsmith had told him that it was simply a matter of the way the barrel was pressed into the action, and that “some work and some don’t” when attempting to load single rounds. I would imagine this could be corrected, but don’t know what the shooter’s plans are to address the issue.

Three of the Steyr Scout rifles were the Cooper Commemorative models (I am not certain I have that terminology exactly correct). My Steyr was the only one of that brand that was not the Commemorative version. During a break, all four Steyr rifles happened to be placed alongside each other in the rack. It was noted that the barrels on the three Commemorative rifles were significantly heavier than the barrel on my Steyr. Mario Marchman had a Steyr Scout in .376 in his vehicle and brought it out. His rifle is a few years old and mine is four years old. The .376 Steyr had a light barrel profile similar to mine. The three Commemorative Steyr rifles had all been purchased in the past 6-8 months and had the identical, heavier profile. At the end of the class, we were able to visit Mrs. Cooper in her home, and during our tour of the armory, I noted one of the original Cooper Commemorative rifles. I checked the barrel profile on that rifle and it was the lightweight profile exactly the same as my rifle. This may be old news to many on the list, but I was previously unaware that there were differences in barrel weights/profiles among the Scout rifles.

Following the awarding of our certificates on the third day of training, we (as previously mentioned) were all able to spend almost an hour visiting Mrs. Cooper in her home and enjoyed some of her homemade Texas brownies, coffee, tea, and lemonade. As always, she was the perfect and most gracious hostess. What a lovely lady.

I can’t say enough about Il Ling and Mario. Terrific instructors, highly knowledgeable, very engaging, and fun to be around.

During the classroom time at the end of the course, Il Ling asked the students for feedback regarding the class they had just completed. Almost everyone was in favor of expanding the class from a 3-day to a 5-day curriculum, and everyone had positive feedback. I personally added a comment that I wanted to share with Il Ling and Mario. I noted that during the entire three day class that Il Ling and Mario had consistently linked the Scout rifle education to Colonel Cooper. They had perpetuated his memory and contribution to rifle craft throughout their class, and I personally felt that was very, very important. I told them so and thanked them for that. They seemed to greatly appreciate the comment, and in fact Il Ling took me aside later while we were at Mrs. Cooper’s home and thanked me for the observation. She indicated that she planned to share the comment with Mrs. Cooper. Made my day.

I learned a lot in three days and know that I hardly scratched the surface. I personally struggled with ammo management and magazine changes throughout the class as I tried to learn how to accomplish these tasks using my strong hand. This was a real challenge for me, since I am so used to doing these tasks with the support hand when shooting a pistol, shotgun, or AR. I fully understand the reasons for the difference when handling the Scout, but certainly never mastered ammo management during class. I did, however, perform some pretty spectacular “magazine juggling” feats throughout the three days! Practice, practice, practice! A gut feeling tells me that some of the other shooters struggled with learning to consistently leave their cheek welded to the stock as they worked the rifle bolt. I don’t recall being called on this, but I can certainly tell you I heard those remarks directed to many shooters throughout the three days of training.

Finally, I had to bow to old age, limited neck movement and a bad shoulder when attempting to shoot from the prone position, I cannot shoot an AR, shotgun, or pistol very well from prone either due to these physical limitations, and although I tired, I simply could not tolerate shooting the Scout from prone position for more than a few minutes at a time. I did find that the integral bipod on the Scout helped me with this challenge, but it was not the solution I needed to be fully comfortable. As a result, I spent about half my time shooting from the seated position when other students (except for one, who had problems similar to mine) were in the prone position. I was able to shoot enough five shot groups at 200 and 300 yards to determine that I can personally shoot about 30% smaller groups from seated than I can from prone.

All in all, I had a great time, learned a lot, and gained even more appreciation of the Scout rifle. I hope this class catches on and others get to experience this training.

[StraitR]

Nothing ruins the handling of a lightweight rifle concept more than a big fucking heavy scope that is designed for big heavy marksman rifles. If you're to the point of cutting off 3.5" of barrel to save weight, then it makes zero sense to buy an optic with significant weight.

Unless you're going to obsess over Tacti-timmy details that aren't critical (or outright pointless, even) for the stated application and ruin the entire concept of the rifle, I'd seriously look at this: New Ultralight 2.5-10x32 Scope from SWFA. Some other options here, but I think that's a hard option to beat.

It's 9oz. That's about 1/3rd to 1/2 the weight of common tactical/precision oriented scopes, such as the Nightforce NXS 2.5-10x42 "compact" rifle scope. IMO, respectfully, if you're going for a lightweight rifle concept for inside 300 yards on game, buy a lightweight scope that is suitable for game inside of 300 yards; If you want a precision rifle with a scope built for such, then buy a precision rifle and be honest/consistent what you're trying to build. As for the LPVO option, unless you're room clearing or doing some sort of super fast target acquisition within 15 yards, you don't need a LPVO. It doesn't make sense to put those on a bolt action hunting rifle regardless of them being all the heat these days to put on carbines for shooting terries.

I couldn't possibly agree more on optic weight absolutely ruining the handling of a rifle. I found the same when putting a heavy 1-6 LPVO on my carbine.

That being said, I think a LPVO works great on bolt action hunting rifles if your typical hunting location is dense woods (or swamp) with a lot of underbrush. Around here, the average shot is <30 yards. FOV is a big deal, particularly on movers, and nothing gives a better FOV than a 1x. And with THAT said, the current crop of "tactical" LPVO options weigh too much. There are options geared towards hunting from Leupold, but I can't justify the price for something like a VX-6 1-6 when there are quality, proven 2-7x options at well under half the cost. I found the Burris Fullfield E1 2-7 to have the best FOV at 2x (45ft) of any 2-7 I could find, so that's what I went with. I'll have it mounted and zeroed this weekend.

I've hated the weight of the "lighter" Gen II-E 1-6 Razor from the moment I mounted it. Took it off my carbine because it destroyed the handling, particularly in combination with a suppressor, and I'm taking it off my CTR for the same reason. If it weighed 12-14oz, it would be perfect for my uses. Three years using the 14 ounce Trijicon TR24 spoiled me with LPVO weight.

[imp1295]

Do you mean single round top loading? The T3X can't single round top load? I'm wondering if the Tikka CTR can. That is a great point to bring up.

EDIT: I'm totally going to check out the Model 70 FW compact; what barrel length?

Yes, single top loading. My T3x cannot be loaded single into the magazine from open bolt.

Featherweight compact is a 20" in bbl, 13" in LOP. Met my requirements because I don't mind a wood stock. VX-5HD 1-5, 13.7 oz.