Beto O'Rourke: "Hell yes, we're going to take your" assault weapon

[Medusa]

That is blatantly, factually incorrect.

No, it just isn’t. Your summaries of the cases are tendentious, but the issues before the Court are clear.

[Hambo]

So did Beto say he plans on confiscating gay rights along with ARs? People who only read the thread title and the last page want to know.

[0ddl0t]

Already covered in my earlier posts.

I could use clarification then:

So, do you sell cakes? Yes. Ok, anyone who wants a cake and can pays for one gets one. Do you sell little men for the tops of the cake? Yes. Then anyone who can afford little men gets to buy them. If you only sell them in pairs, they might have to buy two sets to get the ones they want, but (insert joke about mismatched numbers of hot dogs and hot dog buns in retail packaging here) and that's no different then I can't buy 3 eggs but must buy the dozen. Do you offer to put names on cakes for $X. Then anyone who wants names on cakes and offers up the $X gets it. Do you offer swastikas at any price? No. Ok, you don't have to offer swastikas just because someone wants one. The swastika is now the hamburger at the hot dog stand. Nobody can buy one because you don't offer that product.

Are you saying that if the baker offers wedding cakes that say "Romeo & Juliet" with figurines of a man & a woman then the baker must also make a wedding cake that says "Romeo & Romeo" with figurines of 2 men (as long as the customer buys 2 packs of figurines to get the 2 men)? If so, why would the cake maker who offers stars and triangles and other geometric designs be able to decline making a swastika?

Isn't it really the *message* and not the item that the artistic worker is objecting to?

[luckyman]

Perhaps it's the privilege of being a white male, but I don't find the concept of privilege to be compelling or helpful. We've had some incidents at my workplace, and at my wife's where during a discussion, a white person was told "check your privilege", which translates to "STFU, you don't get to talk". This was unsurprisingly not a good way to encourage open and respectful discussion about sensitive issues.

If you inherit wealth, does that make you privileged? Honestly I don't care. Life is full of things that seem unfair. From what I've seen, privilege is a concept that is mostly used to gain power and respect that has not been earned.

The solution is not a return to a POC/ Minority friendly version of Jim Crow.

If you'll assume that a person has positive qualities based solely on the color of their skin or sexual preference et al, you'll also assume that one has negative qualities likewise.
That cannot and will not end racism or discrimination, because the underlying belief is still there.

I can’t fire you for your religion.

I can’t fire you because you’re white.

I can, in more than half the states, be fired for being lgbt. Explicitly.

Maybe learn some law and what these cases look like ? Of course there are always pretextual firings, but that is not what we’re discussing here.

I'll start by saying I recognize the difference between "anecdote" and "[useful] data", and that what I'm about to say is anecdotal...Also all my experience is with corporations big enough to have a "real" HR department, or with academia. A lot of my data is from California, but fair amounts of it are from other states also.

Since 2000, the only discrimination I've personally witnessed has been against white males under 40. I'm not saying that other discrimination doesn't happen, but I haven't seen it. I've seen many instances of a person clearly not the best person for the job getting the position (new hire or promotion) solely because of race/gender/sexual orientation of "not a straight white male"; during RIFs I've seen many white males get laid off solely because they were white males, and I've seen otherwise high-performing teams stuck for extended periods of time working extra hours to compensate for individuals not pulling their weight, who were being kept on because of race/gender/sexual orientation.

Also my daughter is extremely competent and has worked hard at everything she has attempted. But I will say in both school and job, her gender and sexual orientation has never been a barrier, and if anything I would say she has had an easier time of things due to her gender/sexual orientation.

I believe we are at the point now where any laws or rules that are expressly carving out special protections for one group are doing more harm than good; just fostering further resentment more than they are helping things. I firmly believe each individual should be just judged on their on merits. Where there are laws such as RapidB is mentioning above, I don't understand how anyone is in favor of those laws. But I also don't think we should have any "special snowflake" laws, and we've generally swung too far the other way in society trying to protect special classes to the point where they are not just protected, but are given preferential treatment.

[CCT125US]

So did Beto says he plans on confiscating gay rights along with ARs? People who only read the thread title and the last page want to know.

Only if it has a binary trigger...

[Crow Hunter]

You don’t read so well. I said I had some cases with merit, and some without. I saw a lot with merit.

Good for you, that is why I colored my description based on MY experience. Our experiences obviously aren't the same.

I never said lgbt employees are more valuable. I don’t believe they are. I just don’t believe they become less valuable because they’re LGBT. Your wild ass speculation regarding “what you’d be surprised about” is a dress up of prejudice as something other than that.

I didn't either. I said if a LGBTQ is more valuable than a non-LGBTQ employee, it would be stupid for a company to fire them. I don't think an LGBTQ person is less valuable either. However, I do see that ALL the EEOC claims I have knowledge of have been employees trying to "get back" at their employer for firing them due to extremely poor performance.

I’ll say again - you cannot legally be fired for your religion or skin color. What if I think you subtract value from my business because you’re a white catholic ? Tough, I can’t fire you. Why should your choice of religion be given superior value to my inborn sexual preference? Your true colors show when you liken sexuality to a choice of shoe color or an aryan nation tattoo.

If I get fired because of my shoe color or sexual preference and I give that profitability to a competitor and my previous employer continues to let something other than profitability determine their hiring practices, guess who is going to produce superior products and destroy the competition? The company that has the best employees or the one that fired all the best employees for arbitrary reasons?

Without a doubt, it can be hard to disentangle the threads in an employment case. That doesn’t mean it can’t be done; it can, and it has to be. But there are some where it’s obvious. I had an employer straight up say he fired an employee when he learned the man was gay, for example.

Glad you have to resort to Ad Hominem attacks to make your point.

My comments.

[Hambo]

Only if it has a binary trigger...

Thread winner!

[Medusa]

Glad you have to resort to Ad Hominem attacks to make your point.

My comments.

But I didn’t. You’re the one who said being lgbt is like having a fucking aryan nation tattoo. Your own words make clear where you’re coming from.

How about just accept that you are making a life decision that may impact your ability to be hired like getting Aryan Nation tatoos

[Borderland]

Employers don't ever tell anyone they are being fired because of their status, protected or otherwise. In gov't they have cadres of attorneys either on the payroll or retainer to give human resource managers advice on how to fire people. Just about any large company would have the same resources. Employers build cases against people, sometimes for years, before they fire them because they know they will be sued. Generally the person being fired has no clue about who is documenting their performance and interactions with coworkers.

Sexual harassment, including LBGT, racial harassment or poor job performance are the leading categories for the reason one would lose their job. I've seen it all where I worked and I can confidently say that everyone of the people that were fired really did need to move on. I know that because I worked with them. One woman I worked with got the ax for harassing a lesbian co-worker.

What I saw was individuals that didn't really like their job and went looking to give management a reason to fire them. Inevitably they sued their employer. Sort of the 'you owe me a job' mentality which never used to exist until we were overrun with law school graduates looking for a payday.

[Crow Hunter]

You don’t read so well.

Really?

That isn't an Ad Hominem?

What I said wasn't intended as a personal attack at all.

I apologize if that was taken as a person attack.

My intention was to say

We all choose to show to the world whatever aspects of our lives we want others to see. If that life choice costs us a job, we should accept that and move on to find an employer that values our contribution more than our life choice.

We will just have to agree to disagree on the perspectives that our separate life experiences have given us.