magwell holds on an AR-15 are okay for the average home defender

[BehindBlueI's]

I will state quite honestly that it’s very hard to instill aggression. I have seen many hundreds of shooters both as a student and as an instructor, and the majority of them did not strike me as being able to turn on the aggression.

Stipulated. Some people do die because they can't pull the trigger. Training isn't a panacea.

That's not every loss, though. MANY people start behind the curve because they didn't see trouble coming and then exacerbate it by trying to draw on a drawn gun. They don't know about reaction gaps, pre-attack indicators, the whole "left of bang" concept, etc. People pull a gun, pull the trigger, and didn't chamber a round or didn't get the safety off. They go for an off body carry gun under direct observation and lose the race. These people were willing to fight, they had the aggression part, but they lost because of a lack of technical ability.

I’d rather have an untrained but aggressive dude on my side of a fight than someone with 300 hours of training but who is otherwise a limp noodle.

Nobody has claimed that aggression isn't required and I'm sure you already recognize the false dichotomy. I'm sure you've seen me post "speed, surprise, violence of attack" sort of things before. I'm not even claiming that training is the biggest predictor of who wins fights, just that formal training demonstrably increases the odds of a given population of prevailing. If we don't believe that to be true, why do we bother training cops and soldiers?

[blues]

I’m sort of trying to dig down into true value of formal firearms training, without stating the seemingly obvious.

I’m not trying to play with myself, but I admit I might be shaking it just a little bit.

I think confidence and fighting spirit are every bit as important as technical skills.

When I went through my first SWAT school offered by a large municipal P.D., I ended up shooting and killing, (with simunitions), the former SEAL and then current sworn officer from that department during a night time ambush on my team in an abandoned concrete factory.

He could kick my ass, out shoot and outfight me pretty much any day of the week and twice on Sundays but the pride I took in putting him down and knowing that I could lead men into high risk entries gave me great confidence that paid dividends for years to come both on and off the team.

I still have that graduation certificate somewhere down in the garage and it means as much to me as the OLEO award I received from the U.S. Attorney during the same period of time.

The mental side of the equation is something not to be overlooked.

[revchuck38]

I disagree. I know a lot of shall we say multidisciplinary shooters on this forum and who’ve cross-pollinated from M4C and the like. I have many many hundreds more hours of pistol training than rifle training. But it’s all formal training under the eyes of an instructor.

I’m sort of trying to dig down into true value of formal firearms training, without stating the seemingly obvious.

I’m not trying to play with myself, but I admit I might be shaking it just a little bit.

You've obviously been around here longer than I have. And I am SO not touching that last sentence! LOL

I'm enjoying the discussion.

[Sensei]

I use an extended C-grip when shooting guns with rails longer than about 12”; I grip the mag well when shooting PDW rifles with barrels less than 8”. For barrels between 8-12” it depends on my situation and gear.

[El Cid]

When someone advocates the "c clamp" grip on an AR-15, I've usually heard it explained as the best way to aggressively drive the muzzle between multiple threats.

It reminds me of the trend of keeping the stock almost all the way in, until the trend changed to running the stock almost all the way out.

I'm not sure what the current trend is. Split the difference?

The first time I recall hearing the suggestion to run it fully extended was in a Frank Proctor class. I tried it and found I didn’t care for it. I also saw no advantage with the shot timer. Mine is somewhere in the middle but I might just have too much time shooting nose to charging handle to change. When I started shooting AR’s they had fixed carry handles and iron sights so you wanted to be up close.

But I have found I have significantly more control with a forward grip though I don’t lock my elbow or do the Costa imitation. I haven’t found an instructor who’s curriculum I’ve 100% adopted. I take some things and others I don’t - but after trying them.

I guess the bottom line for me is that while there isn’t one solution for everyone, there are some basic principles that apply to most of us.

ETA: skip to 1:09
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=x_-RIwWXvrg

[guymontag]

Adapt what is useful, reject what is useless, and add what is specifically your own. -Bruce Lee

What are some standards or metrics that one could judge riflecraft by? USPSA has technical pistol shooting down well in my opinion - how are we judging our grips and stances in a consistent manner?

[BehindBlueI's]

What are some standards or metrics that one could judge riflecraft by? USPSA has technical pistol shooting down well in my opinion - how are we judging our grips and stances in a consistent manner?

My department uses the CSAT during patrol rifle training (note this isn't our qual, which is significantly easier): (http://www.combatshootingandtactics.com/standards.htm)

TRI RIFLE STANDARDS 2017

The enclosed drills are designed with three purposes in mind:

A measurable standard to maintain.
An efficient stair-stepped workout program that covers all the bases.
To test the individual shooter at various times to show areas needing improvement.
DISTANCE STANDARD
1. Ready 1 shot 1 target 7 yards 1.00 sec.

2. Ready 2 shots 1 target 7 yards 1.50 sec.

3. Ready 2/1 Body/Head 7 yards 1.75 sec

4. Ready 5/1 Body/Head 7 yards 3.00 sec.

5. Ready 2 shots /2 targets 7 yards 3.00 sec.

6. Ready 1 Rifle /1 Pistol 7 yards 3.25 sec

7. Ready 5 shots /1 target 100 yards/prone 20 sec. *

8. Ready 5 shots /1 target 75 yards/kneel 20 sec. *

9. Ready 5 shots /1 target 50 yards/kneel 20 sec.*

10. Ready 5 shots/1 target 25 yards/stand 8 sec.


(We actually don't go past 50y during the CSAT, either, as that's the limit for line shooting. Only 3 can shoot from 75y and only 1 from 100y due to space limitations and the layout of our range.)

[snow white]

one circumstance when I sometimes use a mag well grip is when I switch my rifle to my support shoulder without switching my hands on the rifle. my hand always comes closer in on the handguard and sometimes finds its way to the magwell when doing the ol shilder switchey technique.

[El Cid]

one circumstance when I sometimes use a mag well grip is when I switch my rifle to my support shoulder without switching my hands on the rifle. my hand always comes closer in on the handguard and sometimes finds its way to the magwell when doing the ol shilder switchey technique.

I think Rob mentioned that earlier. That’s what we teach our folks. We also offer my preferred option - the bump. My hands don’t move, I just change shoulders. It’s easier for me than some as I’m cross eye dominant.

[Jay Cunningham]

I'm not even claiming that training is the biggest predictor of who wins fights, just that formal training demonstrably increases the odds of a given population of prevailing. If we don't believe that to be true, why do we bother training cops and soldiers?

That’s a thoughtful question.

Not that there’s some valid counter argument that it’s pointless to train cops and soldiers, that’s just stupid.

Why do we train soldiers? Why do we train cops? And how do those things look like the average citizen who takes it upon himself to get trained?

I do know that a soldiers job is to carry a gun and look for trouble and in a different way the cops job is the same. For people to perform their job at a high level of proficiency they require initial training and then continuing training. They also need the routine of doing their job in between training periods.

Should I be training the same way as a soldier or the same way as a cop? Should the soldier and the cop even train like each other?

I know that mission drives the gear train, but shouldn’t mission also drive the training?