magwell holds on an AR-15 are okay for the average home defender

[snow white]

I think Rob mentioned that earlier. That’s what we teach our folks. We also offer my preferred option - the bump. My hands don’t move, I just change shoulders. It’s easier for me than some as I’m cross eye dominant.

my support hand is reasonably far forward on the handguard so when I switch the stock to the support side shoulder my range of motion is greatly reduced, bringing my support hand back alleviates that and gives me amore ability to move how i want to. that being said I use this technique pretty infrequently, when it is put in use I find it to be faster than switching to a true support hand grip. I will also say that I absolutely feel a difference in the controllability of the rifle when using a magwell grip compared to a more compressed handguard grip.

[revchuck38]

Mission does drive the training. As a civilian, my mission is to defend myself and my family. I don’t need to train for 500 meter shots anymore, just mostly 0-20 meters. An LEO’s mission is different as well.

[BehindBlueI's]

Should I be training the same way as a soldier or the same way as a cop? Should the soldier and the cop even train like each other?

I know that mission drives the gear train, but shouldn’t mission also drive the training?

There's overlap of course, but yes. I suppose the conversation will now veer toward what's "valid need" and what's LARPing?

[Jay Cunningham]

There's overlap of course, but yes. I suppose the conversation will now veer toward what's "valid need" and what's LARPing?

I’m not sure where the conversation will go. I sense that you’re right on the edge of agitation, yet your participation has been valuable and much appreciated.

Valid need and LARPing are worth discussing. Yes I know they’ve already been discussed in the past, but so has everything else. But perspectives change and we grow with our experiences. Well, hopefully we do.

Let’s circle back to the value of training. We’ve mentioned soldiers and cops, so let’s refocus on Joe Citizen.

I mentioned confidence and options. We also talked about aggression. And you mentioned a lack of technical ability.

[rob_s]

It’s an interesting question about natural tendencies.

I’ve noticed over the years that people react to pain and threats of pain a few different ways, and it mostly seems to be involuntary and subconscious, but also more “nature” than “nurture”. Those that react to pain and threats of pain with anger seem to me to do the best when threatened or hurt, but modern society does a pretty good job of trying to drum that out of people. Others react either with fear or react by completely locking up, both of which seem to be far more societally accepted but. Either of which will do you much good in a fight.

I will say that the more formal gun training I got, the less I felt like I needed to carry. Eventually anyway. Like most people I think I left my first class in “condition orange” and drove home congratulating myself on all the potential gunfights I had now been equipped to stop that I was totally oblivious to (but somehow survived all the same) on the drive up. For the first couple of years that just got worse and worse, to the point that I started thinking I needed a backup gun, and a tourniquet, and a rifle and plate carrier in the truck... all of which slowly started to subside as I continued shooting and training and found the real value to be in practicing avoidance, making more conscious consideration of where I went and when and with whom, etc.

So some formal training may help me win a gunfight, but more formal training made me far better at avoiding them altogether, and still more made me realize how unlikely the whole thing was to begin with.

So given all of that, does it really matter if I magwell hold my DPMS? When actually shooting it might, but the likelihood of actually shooting inside my home is so small as to make it not really matter, and the relatively low skill set involved in that hypothetical (you could pretty much shoot an attacker inside your home by hip-firing that 30-round magazine) makes it matter even less.

[BehindBlueI's]

I’m not sure where the conversation will go. I sense that you’re right on the edge of agitation...

Not at all. I do think that particular question was self-evident, but I was more having a go at how this has played out in the past.

It’s an interesting question about natural tendencies.

I’ve noticed over the years that people react to pain and threats of pain a few different ways, and it mostly seems to be involuntary and subconscious, but also more “nature” than “nurture”. Those that react to pain and threats of pain with anger seem to me to do the best when threatened or hurt, but modern society does a pretty good job of trying to drum that out of people. Others react either with fear or react by completely locking up, both of which seem to be far more societally accepted but. Either of which will do you much good in a fight.

I read a book on the topic who's title I no longer recall. The Hero Gene or something like that, perhaps. The author's theory was that how you will react to crisis will be subconscious, in line with what you're saying. That if you're the sort of person who jumps in the water to save little Timmy you'll jump in before you've logically worked through it with your forebrain as there simply isn't time for conscious decision making. I have seen, and participated, in that in action. I have also seen, and participated in, training catching up to that and taking over. I also came to realize that context mattered. I do not have nearly the subconscious push to go into a burning building, even if I believe people are inside, then I did to break cover to support someone pinned down by gunfire. Probably veering way off topic, but our brain is a committee and the little fellow inside mine who wants to save people seems to have a strong aversion to burns while getting shot at seems to be a relative non-issue for him.

As far as responses, that's largely a function of being overwhelmed to the point lizard brain is in control. Lizard knows how to do nothing but the following: Fight, flee, freeze, fuck. The last two aren't much good in a fight. Stress inoculation plays a large role there.

[revchuck38]

What @rob_s said. ^^^^

Let’s circle back to the value of training. We’ve mentioned soldiers and cops, so let’s refocus on Joe Citizen.

I mentioned confidence and options. We also talked about aggression. And you mentioned a lack of technical ability.

Confidence and technical ability are mutually reinforcing. Knowing that you can do X because you've done it before under some pressure (training, competition) frees up some of your attention to take care of other stuff like checking for other adversaries. Knowing that you can't do Y motivates you (or, at least, me) to work at it until you have a reasonable level of competence at that skill.

Options - Training puts tools in your toolbox. The most important one I've learned as a civilian is to stay out of or GTFO of Dodge if at all possible. Apparently, there are folks who don't know that's an option.

Need to get ready for work, might think about this some more.

[That Guy]

I hope I am not distracting you from the bigger discussion too much. Just a quick clarification:

Well akshually I think I run it two clicks out from fully collapsed. Unless I'm prone, where I run it all the way out.

So if you are doing running and gunning, or something similar where you need to move between shooting positions, do you take the time to adjust your stock between shooting positions? If not, do you then train to shoot prone with the stock in either of the two possible positions it can be in?

[Jay Cunningham]

The last three responses @revchuck38 @BehindBlueI's @rob_s have really sharpened up what has been knocking around inside my brain. None of this was self-evident to me, but I had an instinct that I could get help here.

• technical competence
• stress inoculation
• unlocking aggression

I think these may be the definable hallmarks of effective training. I know that technical competence can be developed in training, but requires a lot of practice. I know that repeated, structured training does stress inoculate. I am less sure about aggression. I have had very limited success in unlocking potential aggression in students I've instructed. I suspect there are trainers out there who have come closer to cracking the code on this particular riddle than others.

Thinking back on all my hundreds upon hundreds (not a humble brag, it's a fact and there are many here with way more training than me) of hours of formal training, there are few experiences which stand out... but those which do I believe incorporate these three elements.

No, this was not a foregone conclusion of mine. It came out of the development of the discussion. I am also open to refutation of this, but right now this is bubbling nicely in my brain.

[Jay Cunningham]

Let me add a caveat:

• technical competence
• stress inoculation
• unlocking aggression

The above can occur in a dangerous, risky environment. The REAL hallmark of effective training are the above in a controlled environment with the risk properly managed.

This is a HUGE distinction.