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Thread: magwell holds on an AR-15 are okay for the average home defender

  1. #41
    banana republican blues's Avatar
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    If you have to force yourself to learn "the right way" when some other way (already) works for you, which is the right way?

    How long must you train "the right way" in order to get demonstrably better results?

    If you don't get demonstrably better results, will you have to relearn your way?

    Faster or more accurate? Which one deserves precedence?

    Sounds like fodder for an episode of "Kung Fu".
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  2. #42
    Site Supporter Jay Cunningham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by blues View Post
    If you have to force yourself to learn "the right way" when some other way (already) works for you, which is the right way?

    How long must you train "the right way" in order to get demonstrably better results?

    If you don't get demonstrably better results, will you have to relearn your way?

    Faster or more accurate? Which one deserves precedence?

    Sounds like fodder for an episode of "Kung Fu".

    Someone mentioned "optimal" earlier I believe. Optimal can itself be parsed, and probably should be. Not just for mental masturbation or picking tiny little nits, but to ensure a proper understanding of context.

    Optimal for all contexts? Optimal for certain contexts?

    Does running an AR in a timed 1-5 Drill on a gun range give a good indicator of what is optimal in a home defense scenario? Is that a good way to train?

    These aren't intended to be rhetorical questions. Also: "it's good enough" is an acceptable answer. But we all like to try and figure out better ways to do stuff.

  3. #43
    Site Supporter Hambo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jay Cunningham View Post
    I'm telling you that I don't know the "why" for a lot of the things I've been taught for the last 13 years. I place the blame squarely on myself, since I relied too much on authority and didn't press for clear explanations.
    When I started there we had two kinds of extended stocks: extended or not. Then somebody had the bright idea to mill a few more stop options. Once I got my hands on one of them I started running my stock 1 position in from full extension, which worked great with body armor. An A2 stock fits me perfectly in regular clothing, so that's my preferred choice. I also like a VFG near the gas block. If you're not 6'2" and don't wear 36" sleeves, you should probably do something different.

    As far as authorities go: trust but verify.
    "Gunfighting is a thinking man's game. So we might want to bring thinking back into it."-MDFA

  4. #44
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    Back when I first joined the Army, the combination of the M16A2 buttstock, IBA, and not having super long arms made the magwell hold (or something close to it) much more natural. I doubt I could have done an aggressive forward C-clamp like with that set up.


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  5. #45
    Site Supporter rob_s's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jay Cunningham View Post
    Possibly.

    I'm telling you that I don't know the "why" for a lot of the things I've been taught for the last 13 years. I place the blame squarely on myself, since I relied too much on authority and didn't press for clear explanations.

    So I may from time to time bring up some questions about stuff that I've been taught over the years, because I suspect that there are things that I do which don't have a great explanation. I certainty always try to present the "why" when I'm teaching someone, but my own students could possibly be influenced by my own (perceived) authority.

    Better late than never for me to seek some clarity on certain things.
    My perspective may be slightly different, even though our relative course-count and time-in is probably similar, because of my time spent "gaming". Not only shooting matches but also running them. Moreso than classes and drills, being able to say "so and so said run the stock out, let me try that for a couple of matches" really gave me the feedback I needed, particularly once I got past the idea that I was training for a gunfight, or that it mattered what I was training for.

    One good case in point...

    Pat Rogers always talked about hammers. At least in the classes I took. I ran out and started using that in the matches I shot/ran.

    Then I trained with Kyle Lamb, and he talked about "cadence". Tried that in matches when the situation presented itself, and performed better.

    Went back to Pat's class and in a drill where he was talking "hammers" I shot a cadence and smoked the drill. Afterwards while everyone else was jamming mags he and I discussed it and the relative merits of each.

    Had I not had the opportunity to try both ways in a match environment, I probably would have just gone with who I thought was cooler, or had more street cred, or whoever's class I took last (most likely).


    To your magwell point, I remember being taught somewhere a method of changing shoulders to shoot weak-side that involved a hand on the magwell at some point in the jazz hands, and in a match I realized that I could just leave the hand there most of the time for the weak-side shooting and save myself a fraction of a second in not moving it out to the handguard.

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by RevolverRob View Post
    I never advanced past Cro-Magnon-stage of AR15 training and setup. I'm still running with the stock almost entirely collapsed (because that's what fits my short arms the best) and I'm still running a red-dot. Heck, I ain't even got slots for rails on my gun...
    Guess that puts me at pre-Cro-Magnon level. My only AR is an A2, and it fits me well...and I'm still running irons. My HD long gun is a 590A1. Geezers gotta geezer.

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Jay Cunningham View Post
    When someone advocates the "c clamp" grip on an AR-15, I've usually heard it explained as the best way to aggressively drive the muzzle between multiple threats.

    It reminds me of the trend of keeping the stock almost all the way in, until the trend changed to running the stock almost all the way out.

    I'm not sure what the current trend is. Split the difference?
    Don't matter. Some gun store/internet commando will tell you you're doing it wrong.
    With no explanation.

    I confess my first reaction to a WA Hometown Forum Group Buy of Mega lowers on ARFCOM, in which the question of whether we wanted the magwell "textured" for a magwell grip, was that "Drill Sergeant Dailey would have me still doing pushups if I had held my M16 that way."
    But maybe not; in retrospect, I suspect he would have said "Do what works best for you."
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  8. #48
    The R in F.A.R.T RevolverRob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by revchuck38 View Post
    Guess that puts me at pre-Cro-Magnon level. My only AR is an A2, and it fits me well...and I'm still running irons. My HD long gun is a 590A1. Geezers gotta geezer.
    What a neanderthal.



    Somewhere not long ago we had a bit of a discussion on shooting “stance” and someone quoted ToddG as having said, “The stance most shooting occurs from is happenstance.” (I’m paraphrasing).

    The grip I have on my rifle, shotgun, or pistol is likely to be “happengrip” as in the one I happen to end up with. Often I grab my AR from leaning in the corner next to my nightstand by the handguard nut/lock ring with my support hand. It so happens if I swing the gun up to the pocket of my shoulder from there, I have half my support hand on the magwell. If that’s where my hand ends up when I start shooting the gun, does it matter? Only if I can’t put the rounds where I want them.

    If I have the rifle slung, then my hand will move out towards a C-grip. If I need to activate my weaponlight out there, in order to ID/do things, then I should have time to index the gun properly.

    BTW: This is one reason we must not only regularly practice our pistol draw strokes but we should continue working through fouled draws and sub-optimal grips. We need those reps, because there is zero guarantee the grip you get on a weapon will be ideal, let alone “optimal”.

  9. #49
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    I run a relaxed "C" ish clamp, I say that because I need to be able to run either a PEQ or come down to the VFG to use the WML at 4 o'clock with the clicky tailcap. I run the butt stock all the way out and bring it back in one notch for armor, or if in patrol uniform all the way out. This is on an issued AR that has an 11.5 BBL and 9.5 inch handguard. I prefer a 14.5 Barrel personally and the longer handguard that allows me to use. I am 6'3, 260 for a frame of size reference and I guess I have regular sized arms.

    In a duty environment I used to be in the camp of hose them down until they aren't a threat anymore, and be pushing the split times as hard as possible. After working in LE in a more populated area than my previous job, I am much more in the camp of getting as good of a shot as I can as quickly as that takes. If I was running gun games with a rifle, I could definitly see some advantages to an aggressive C-clamp.YMMV

  10. #50
    David S.

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