In 2019 weapon lights are mandatory....convince me otherwise

[blues]

I can't understand anyone wanting a WML or having much interest in tritiated sights.

I was fine from 1988 through 2016 when I joined this place...

(In truth they do help on a couple of stages of my LEOSA night quals where the lighting is such that I can barely make out the target and can see my sights not at all (otherwise.)

[BK14]

Pistol mounted lights are far from mandatory, especially for CCW use. The real world need for a pistol light for CCW is near absolute zero. The real world need for pistol mounted lights in police work is vastly less than most people think.


Searching with WMLs is shitty tactics. It works a lot with long guns because team use. How many people have an entry team backing their move?


Modified FBI technique works. Fact.

My latest data point is one of my former rookies, our new county sheriff, who took a bullet through the forearm just below his flashlight at the start of a close range ambush. He credits modified FBI technique with saving his life.

Over my years working with Strategos and running low light FoF drills I've taken Sim rounds directly into the lens or bezel of my handheld light about a dozen times. As Craig Douglas notes in his most excellent AMIS class "Lights draw vision, lights draw fire".

Can we get some context of this ambush? Was his light already on hand, was he in cover, lighting etc. At my current level of training, I’d have a hard time responding to an ambush by drawing a gun one handed and a light with the other hand.


I guess my general preference from WML vs handheld from a LE usage is from the idea that I’d rather have better control on my gun to be putting more rounds on target with more precision, than relying on the suspect targeting my light. Obviously context depends here, and like I said I carry both so I have options.

We don’t clear buildings at my agency without at least 2-3 backup officers, and for me personally it’s with guys that I train with pretty regularly. Is your sentiment that searching a building with a WML is “shitty tactics” universally, or for a cop (or civi) with nobody else with him?

[Chuck Haggard]

Can we get some context of this ambush? Was his light already on hand, was he in cover, lighting etc. At my current level of training, I’d have a hard time responding to an ambush by drawing a gun one handed and a light with the other hand.


I guess my general preference from WML vs handheld from a LE usage is from the idea that I’d rather have better control on my gun to be putting more rounds on target with more precision, than relying on the suspect targeting my light. Obviously context depends here, and like I said I carry both so I have options.

We don’t clear buildings at my agency without at least 2-3 backup officers, and for me personally it’s with guys that I train with pretty regularly. Is your sentiment that searching a building with a WML is “shitty tactics” universally, or for a cop (or civi) with nobody else with him?

Pedestrian stop on a suspicious subject on a very dark street. No reason yet to have gun in hand. Lit guy up as he approached due to voice commands. A very typical "Hey, I need to talk to you a minute" situation. Bad guy turned out to have just done a robbery, our guy didn't know that. Bad guy pulled as he got close and came at the officer shooting.


Yes, I am saying that using a pistol mounted light to search a building is shitty tactics, even when you have other officers on scene. Handheld lights are a vastly better search tool. I don't care if you shoot better with two hands on the gun. It's not a gunfight yet, because you have no idea where in the fuck the potential bad guy is.

Typical cop "low light" training is range training. This leads to Good Idea Fairy bullshit that doesn't translate into the reality of the bad guy gets a vote in how well our tactics work.

[Chuck Haggard]

People who are serious in wanting to read more on this subject should spend the $19 for Ken Good's book;


https://www.progressivecombat.com/

[corneileous]

Generic image from the google:








And a good example of application of the technique from Will Petty:

I would think the top technique, or maybe even more of a lower, out to the side technique would be a little better. I would think it wouldn’t take much for someone to think the guy shining a high flashlight at them is hardly 7 foot tall and would aim a little lower. Lol.


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[BK14]

People who are serious in wanting to read more on this subject should spend the $19 for Ken Good's book;


https://www.progressivecombat.com/

I’ll be buying the book.

This is literally the first time I’ve heard of someone saying searching with a WML is bad tactics.... My agency does building searches the way we do based off training, and experience of officers. We do quite a bit of force on force working these scenarios, and the conclusion from those that’ve done it, and the training side is it works. We don’t even teach handheld light technique usage except on the flat range because of the successes of WML usage.

I’m not saying this to say you’re wrong, quite the opposite, I’m saying this to say I want to learn to do it both ways. Who would you recommend to train with to get this type of exposure?

[BK14]

I would think the top technique, or maybe even more of a lower, out to the side technique would be a little better. I would think it wouldn’t take much for someone to think the guy shining a high flashlight at them is hardly 7 foot tall and would aim a little lower. Lol.


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That’s part of the point of the technique. Based off the context you can adapt the technique. You don’t always have room to stick you hand straight out to the side. Putting the light high in the bottom picture is to get your illumination past the barrier, the car, and down range to the target.

[corneileous]

I can't understand anyone wanting a WML or having much interest in tritiated sights.

Sure, have 'em if you like, but from my perspective they're either an unnecessary encumbrance (WML) or a superfluous expense that requires replacing every 4-10 years. (I bought into the advertised concept of tritiated sights being a "necessity" for a few years before recognizing how very limited their genuine usefulness was, and I've had them dim out in as short a time as 4 years.)

In 35 years of (non-LEO) CCW I've never yet used nor wished for a WML.

I do have one (old tech incandescent, not LED, change the batteries regularly) on my bedside security-holstered G21, because in our little house, anything that goes loudly "bump in the night" won't be my wife or kids (who are long grown & gone), but in my AIWB- or hip-holstered sidearm?

Nah.

YMMV, etc.

I think I’d be better with some fiber optic sights for my pistols but I’m having trouble finding some that I like. I bought some Trijicon night sights for one of my Storms but yes, it does suck that I’ll probably be replacing them in the next 7-8 years if they last that long.


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[Shumba]

People who are serious in wanting to read more on this subject should spend the $19 for Ken Good's book;


https://www.progressivecombat.com/

Thanks for the link Chuck.
Shumba

[SAWBONES]

(In truth they do help on a couple of stages of my LEOSA night quals where the lighting is such that I can barely make out the target and can see my sights not at all (otherwise.)

Yeah, I know they definitely have uses, just not for me, or at least not enough to make it worth the trouble and expense to replace them.

If they lasted for 100 years, I'd definitely have 'em, since there's no other real downside that I can see.