In 2019 weapon lights are mandatory....convince me otherwise

[Duke]

For pro active door kickers- Yes
For unplanned reactive engagements- NO

Sure.

But let’s for a second realize that beyond a j frame in a pocket - most of the things we all consider normal edc gear now - was at a time not long ago labeled as “gamer mods/operator stuff/Duty use”

[voodoo_man]

Since Cunningham hit the nail on the head I want to extrapolate a bit on this, as I've explained this before to various people in various classes and understanding what perspective you are looking at it from is very important.

From the LE perspective, you may be working at night or during the day and get into a dark structure/area (house basements, underground, etc). You are going into a KNOWN possible threat environment. So an alarm of some kind, searching a house, chasing a suspect into an area/structure, doing warrant service. Low/No light situations of the felony in progress variety require white light to be used to PID. This is pretty normal application of light, can easily be done two hands (light in hand, gun in other). In this category a LEO has the legal authority to point a pistol at a possible threat. There are plenty of scenarios which do not require a WML, do not require a pistol needing to be pointed at people and application of white light needed in order to properly investigate the situation. This is also not representative of the roles LEOs have while handling dogs, shields or tools, and other such special situations. These situations may require an WML but they also probably require other specific non-standard LE tools as well. Anyway you slice it, a LEO is going into a situation looking to discriminate possible threats.

From the responsible citizen perspective, pointing a firearm at anyone in order to PID them without having already determined they were a threat is going to be VERY unlikely. Think about the circumstances where you would do this and if it were to even be legal. Possibly in your house or on your private property? In those situations you wouldn't have the gun holstered, a nightstand gun with a light/laser combo is a good deal for a house-borne nightstand gun relegated to that specific purpose. The citizen walking around on the street or driving around will very seldom draw, point a firearm, and then use their light to PID. That's actually a crime in some states, as such, most responsible armed citizens will draw a concealed firearm once a threat is presented and they determine that drawing a firearm is immediately needed, the time for PID has passed at that point.

So where does the 2019 model of WML concealed carry come into play? I believe that social media, has done a yuge part in pushing the concept that you need a WML on your pistol. I carried one for many years on and off duty, uniformed and UC. I can name maybe ten times when I absolutely needed an WML on my pistol as an integrated single hand operated tool, none of those situations existed for me in my off-duty experience. Social media, however, plays a role because you see them everywhere and on every gun around. Companies are trying to push higher lumen output and smaller frames. I think that a true concealable light needs to have a laser, especially for non-LE carry. There are only a few that do that correctly while keeping a small form factor (like the tlr7/550xl) but they don't have lasers, although the TLR8 does. This is one of those rare situations where you need to figure out if the concealment and comfort limitations of having a light outweigh the application of the light, I would argue it does not.

The only thing to consider, as I posted in my previous response, is if you work/live in an area that has no ambient light, no street lights, no artificial light at all and you are out after sunset. I would argue that you may need a WML in order to PID a threat as part of situational awareness. This does not apply to everyone and most people are not out after dark enough to mandate a dedicated AIWB/IWB setup for a light all year round. Many people swap to OWB gun+light combo when its the winter and gets dark early in these particular environments. If that's the case you need to assess for yourself the requirement.

Regardless of any of the above, you need to have a hand held light that has a lot of lumens, it being 2019, a USB rechargeable hand held is almost mandatory. Having another light in your bag, car, etc is a good idea as well, two is one and all that.

As for rifles, every rifle should have a light which can allow you to PID within your effective contact distance.

[JBP55]

You seem to want to argue one line at a time. What are you getting at?

WMLs are not stand alone lights. Use a handheld to search, and a WML (if you have one) to illuminate your target.

What Hambo said Jay.

[JBP55]

My plan, in a home invasion at night is to have my wife go to her assigned location and grab her assigned gun, man the phones and hopefully manage the dog.

The plan, for me, is to take a position and wait for the threat to enter the fatal funnel and take appropriate action. That may or may not require lighting him or them up. I only have to account for my wife and dog. Anyone else is a bogey. (This is not searching or hunting the threat. This is letting the threat walk into the web.)



Out and about with a handgun there is usually enough ambient light to identify a threat without a light. (But always have a light, regardless.)

Same response here.

[JBP55]

I’m asking questions. I haven’t yet begun an argument.

Who in this thread suggested that a WML is a stand alone light?

What if you don’t have a HH light but you have a WML. Are you precluded from searching?

All that aside, I’m certain that JBP55 can speak for himself.

I can and did so carry on.

[ssb]

My EDC handgun is also my primary HD tool. I like having a WML on it for the HD role. I do not like unloading/reloading the handgun on a regular basis, which would be required to safely install/uninstall a WML: in my view, more administrative handling = more opportunities for me to be inattentive or negligent.

Because I have a holster/light combo which allows me to conceal a WML-equipped pistol with comfort, I leave the WML on all the time. If in the already-unlikely event I'm drawing in a public place where I need the PID capability, great, it's there if I need it. If I don't need it, I still get a couple extra ounces at the muzzle to keep muzzle rise down.

In no way do I view it as a mandatory addition to my EDC gun, as the real world opportunities for it being necessary are on a very distant part of the bell curve. I'm carrying it solely because there's no consequence for not doing so and I gain the benefit of not having to screw with my gun.

As for the idea of them being "necessary," I blame social media, and in particular a specific well-intentioned crowd whose followers sometimes devolve into groupthink regarding things that aren't really applicable to them.

[RevolverRob]

My EDC handgun is also my primary HD tool. I like having a WML on it for the HD role. I do not like unloading/reloading the handgun on a regular basis, which would be required to safely install/uninstall a WML: in my view, more administrative handling = more opportunities for me to be inattentive or negligent.

One reason I vastly prefer the Streamlight TLR 1-4 series of lights (in addition to their switch) is that the can clip over the side of the rail, instead of sliding over the rail from the front This means you can attach the light without worrying about muzzling yourself. This is another reason I prefer a handgun with a manual safety. Holding my 1911 with my strong hand, I can use my strong hand thumb to apply positive upward pressure to the thumb safety, while my weak hand installs and tightens the light. Takes approximately 5-seconds.

I of course don't intend to muzzle my own hand, but in the event that I did, I have a finger properly indexed, a thumb applying upward pressure to a locked thumb safety. Remember the thing about the 4 rules, you have to break two of them to get into real trouble. Though avoiding breaking any of them at any time is preferable.

Similarly a Beretta 92 or other slide mounted safety device can be held securely in the safe position with the strong hand thumb during manipulations. Similarly any decock lever can be held in the decock position and should render the firearm safe for administrative manipulations. It's been awhile since I've used a P-Series Sig, but if I recall, you cannot simultaneously hold the decock lever down and activate the trigger. I know this to be true on Berettas and older Ruger P-Series guns.

[ssb]

One reason I vastly prefer the Streamlight TLR 1-4 series of lights (in addition to their switch) is that the can clip over the side of the rail, instead of sliding over the rail from the front This means you can attach the light without worrying about muzzling yourself.

Once the screw is loosened, I can do the same with a TLR7. Nevertheless, it's something I'd rather not do on a twice-daily basis, particularly with a loaded gun which lacks a manual safety. I have plenty of training and experience with a handgun and have a reasonably good understanding of firearms safety. That doesn't mean I go looking for more opportunities to have to apply that knowledge.

Again, the WML hurts nothing for concealment/comfort for me, otherwise it'd either come off while carrying or I'd have a loaded second gun dedicated to HD use. While I have a near-identical backup for training, it's kept unloaded for dry fire.

[Texaspoff]

For me personally, I have not nor do I ever plan on using a WML, on a pistol. I do always have at least two other forms of illumination, both on and off duty. I have practiced extensively with the use of a separate light while shooting and I am completely comfortable with it. My reasoning is going to be different from the average person, and unless this has happened to you you likely won't understand.

Years ago while searching a building on night shift, long before such things as a WML's. I had my SL20 shot out of my support hand by the suspect inside the building. At that time, we were trained to use our flashlights down low away from our body, and that is what kept me from taking a center mass hit if it had been a WML. When the suspect was interviewed, he specifically stated he was shooting at the light, because he knew that an officer was behind it, and yes I was strobing it.

I will never razz anyone who chooses to use a WML, as if used correctly is an outstanding tool. For me, It doesn't offer me any advantage over my current setup, and sometimes easier isn't always better.


TXPO

[HCountyGuy]

...
So where does the 2019 model of WML concealed carry come into play? I believe that social media, has done a yuge part in pushing the concept that you need a WML on your pistol.
...

This all the way. The current state of the social media "EDC" gun is insane. Folks will do anything and put everything on their gun because it makes them look Operator AF.

WML? Check
Ported slide? Check
Aftermarket barrel that has some porting or dimpling on it? Check
Punisher Skull somewhere on the gun? Check

The list goes on.

What people have been convinced they need to have and what they actually need has so little overlap as to almost be two seperate circles in the venn diagram of the two. Designer guns are all the rage, but the guys shooting them still can't manage better than a 10" group at 5 yards. That's okay though because "Combat Accuracy".