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Thread: Velocity threshold for bullets

  1. #51
    Deadeye Dick Clusterfrack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightvisionary View Post
    What will you do if while out in the woods with your 10mm hand loaded Bear rounds you are attacked by a man with a gun, knife, axe? Do you keep a spare magazine or pistol loaded only with factory HST for human threats?
    It’s a valid question. If I am in the woods and have to shoot someone in self defense with heavy hardcast penetrator ammo, that’s the situation I would have been forced into. Kind of like if I had to defend myself with a bolt action rifle.
    "You can never have too many knives." --Joe Ambercrombie
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  2. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by BehindBlueI's View Post
    Many of those things are stupid as well. Others require very little explanation, but will need to be explained. A light is easy to explain, to build a counter narrative that paints you as responsible. Stupid dust cover? Hard sell.

    What's the counter narrative for reloaded ammo? Paint it in a good light for me.
    Mine are more accurate than factory ammo reducing the chance of a flyer striking an unintended target or innocent bystander.
    I have had factory ammo with primers seated upside down, case mouths crushed, overcharges, undercharges, ect. I can inspect every step as I load to make sure its going to feed, go bang, and eject when my life counts on it.
    I can load 100 rounds for the price of 25 factory rounds. Which means I can practice more with the ammo I carry increasing my level of compentency and safety.
    Last edited by Nightvisionary; 11-02-2019 at 04:20 PM.

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightvisionary View Post
    What will you do if while out in the woods with your 10mm hand loaded Bear rounds you are attacked by a man with a gun, knife, axe? Do you keep a spare magazine or pistol loaded only with factory HST for human threats?
    I don't own anything in 10mm but I do carry everyday a sidearm and a long gun stocked for large dangerous animals.
    I think no one ever said since the invention of gunpowder, "oh no, my ammo is suited to large predators, I must not shoot these two tweakers with a knife trying to steal my car until I can empty and reload with anti human suitable ammo, time out fella's while I switch out"!
    Ammo that gives us a fighting chance against large animal threats will also clock humans, even while not being optimal for that use.
    So, axe weilding maniac would get the full dose from me. As do the 3 feral dogs (much more common in my world). Overkill for the sake of being prepared for the largest/hardest to put down threat is no vice. Split times be damned I want something for my worst case scenario.
    Just my take.

  4. #54
    Modding this sack of shit BehindBlueI's's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightvisionary View Post
    Mine are more accurate than factory ammo reducing the chance of a flyer striking an unintended target or innocent bystander.
    I have had factory ammo with primers seated upside down, case mouths crushed, overcharges, undercharges, ect. I can inspect every step as I load to make sure its going to feed, go bang, and eject when my life counts on it.
    I can load 100 rounds for the price of 25 factory rounds. Which means I can practice more with the ammo I carry increasing my level of compentency and safety.
    As good a sell as possible.

    If I was on the other side, I'd probably go down the path of how many guns do you own? How much did they cost? How much does factory ammunition cost? Is it really about cost Mr. Nightvisionary, or is there another reason? Why so many guns? I'd then ask why police, the military, etc. rely on those unreliable rounds...the same ammunition that's good enough for our soldiers in harms way on an actual battlefield is untrustworthy to you. Does that strike you as paranoid? Are you a paranoid man, Mr. Nightvisionary?

    So was this shooting just practice for you, Mr. Nightvisionary? Oh, so these weren't practice bullets? You needed to make the bullets you intended to shoot people with cost efficient? How many times did you think you would need to shoot someone that how cost efficient it was entered into your thinking, Mr. Nightvisionary?

    More paranoia...depending on how many shots were fired harp on premeditation of firing large amounts of ammo...

    Maybe a jury buys it, maybe they don't, but if I can put together a cohesive narrative that you're paranoid and overreact (especially if I can get you worked up on the stand) and can get the jury to evaluate your case in that light, I'm ahead. I've seen juries buy stupider arguments. Keep in mind the other side will try to specifically weed out anyone on the jury who appears to have firearms knowledge during voir dire. You will not be talking to a jury of your peers, you will be talking to a group specifically selected as blank slates as far as specialized knowledge goes. But with factory ammo it's not an avenue of attack.
    Last edited by BehindBlueI's; 11-02-2019 at 05:50 PM.
    Sorta around sometimes for some of your shitty mod needs.

  5. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by BehindBlueI's View Post
    As good a sell as possible.

    If I was on the other side, I'd probably go down the path of how many guns do you own? How much did they cost? How much does factory ammunition cost? Is it really about cost Mr. Nightvisionary, or is there another reason? Why so many guns? I'd then ask why police, the military, etc. rely on those unreliable rounds...the same ammunition that's good enough for our soldiers in harms way on an actual battlefield is untrustworthy to you. Does that strike you as paranoid? Are you a paranoid man, Mr. Nightvisionary?

    So was this shooting just practice for you, Mr. Nightvisionary? Oh, so these weren't practice bullets? You needed to make the bullets you intended to shoot people with cost efficient? How many times did you think you would need to shoot someone that how cost efficient it was entered into your thinking, Mr. Nightvisionary?

    More paranoia...depending on how many shots were fired harp on premeditation of firing large amounts of ammo...

    Maybe a jury buys it, maybe they don't, but if I can put together a cohesive narrative that you're paranoid and overreact (especially if I can get you worked up on the stand) and can get the jury to evaluate your case in that light, I'm ahead. I've seen juries buy stupider arguments. Keep in mind the other side will try to specifically weed out anyone on the jury who appears to have firearms knowledge during voir dire. You will not be talking to a jury of your peers, you will be talking to a group specifically selected as blank slates as far as specialized knowledge goes. But with factory ammo it's not an avenue of attack.
    Those same arguments can be made all day long with any number of calibers, after market gun accessories, and even high speed firearm training offered by the plethora of formers spec ops trainers out there. It makes for fun and interesting discussion on the internet but you have not provided a single example of when it has ever occurred. So are you saying that if someone is a victim of a home invasion and uses a firearm to stop the attack using a 9mm Gold Dot bullet loaded by Federal to 1200 FPS it is a proper use of force but using a 9mm Gold Dot bullet loaded to 1200 FPS by the home owner is an improper use of force? Posting a single real life example where this has ever been used in court arguments would be the equivelent of a mic drop but nobody can provide it. If the level of force is appropriate the tool does not matter.
    Last edited by Nightvisionary; 11-02-2019 at 08:53 PM.

  6. #56
    Deadeye Dick Clusterfrack's Avatar
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    We are fortunate to have SMEs here on the forum who are willing to share their experience and advice. These include tier 1 operators, LEOs, top level instructors, and many more. It really is very different from practically every other forum in this regard.

    In this thread we have one of our SMEs telling us he thinks it is a bad idea to use handloads for defense.

    As with all advice, no one is required to take it.

    I’m not sure what more can be said here.
    "You can never have too many knives." --Joe Ambercrombie
    Shabbat shalom, motherf***ers! --Mordechai Jefferson Carver

  7. #57
    Modding this sack of shit BehindBlueI's's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightvisionary View Post
    Those same arguments can be made all day long with any number of calibers, after market gun accessories, and even high speed firearm training offered by the plethora of formers spec ops trainers out there. It makes for fun and interesting discussion on the internet but you have not provided a single example of when it has ever occurred.
    I have. You've repeatedly ignored it. I've given you an example from Mas' experience where he was called as an expert witness. You've blown it off.

    I've given you an example of when green tip ammo irritated the prosecutor and biased her against the shooter. It was *not* a good shoot. Neither was a woman shooting at fleeing unarmed robbers. She didn't get charged. Why? Because a certain lead detective took her side and convinced the prosecutor it was not in the best interest of justice to pursue the case. If that certain lead detective had thought the shooter was an asshole vigilante, or if a different lead detective had the case, that shooter would probably have a felony now and would never be able to carry again. You won't find either event in PACER or online though, so it never happened. I've had an expert witness ask for my class notes from a class when another student got sued. Doubt you find it in PACER or online, so probably didn't happen.

    I carry a factory gun with factory ammunition. I do not put non-factory parts in them. I do not engrave them. The only "customization" is sights, and I have documentation to show why. I even dress in a manner that fits with "would I want a jury to see me wearing this as I shoot someone?" because I know the role that plays. I have prepaid legal. I train with non-controversial figures. I know juries aren't logic machines mechanically applying the law, I know cops aren't, I know prosecutors aren't, I know judges aren't. All to a greater or lesser degree. I am setting myself up to as sympathetic as possible to not only any witnesses who happen to see the shooting but every single step of the "judgement" process down the road.

    Like I said, I'm not trying to change your mind. You're fact resistant. I'm just putting the info out for others who wander into the thread and help them separate good info from bad. If they elect to ignore it, that's fine, we all roll the dice, but at least they can make an informed decision.
    Sorta around sometimes for some of your shitty mod needs.

  8. #58
    @Nightvisionary Dude... Just go buy a couple boxes of factory ammo and sleep better.

    We get it. Your bullets do the same thing that millions of LEOs on duty at any given moment all across the country are carrying 24/7/365. No fleschetes, RIP bullshit, yours do the same exact thing. We get it. Really, we do.

    But listen the those who are telling you that they rig the game every chance they get. They only use science and physics if, and only if, they can win beat you with it. They only care about padding their resume, not science, forensics, physics, or morality. They will bring charges if they think they can win. That's pretty much the only criteria in our fucked up world today.

    Don't make it easier, buy some ammo.

  9. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by Spartan1980 View Post
    @Nightvisionary Dude... Just go buy a couple boxes of factory ammo and sleep better.

    We get it. Your bullets do the same thing that millions of LEOs on duty at any given moment all across the country are carrying 24/7/365. No fleschetes, RIP bullshit, yours do the same exact thing. We get it. Really, we do.

    But listen the those who are telling you that they rig the game every chance they get. They only use science and physics if, and only if, they can win beat you with it. They only care about padding their resume, not science, forensics, physics, or morality. They will bring charges if they think they can win. That's pretty much the only criteria in our fucked up world today.

    Don't make it easier, buy some ammo.
    Alright, alright. I just ordered some Underwood (FACTORY) Ammo for my 10MM and 44 Magnum CCW guns.

  10. #60
    Deadeye Dick Clusterfrack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightvisionary View Post
    Alright, alright. I just ordered some Underwood (FACTORY) Ammo for my 10MM and 44 Magnum CCW guns.
    Glad to hear it. Check out the new 10mm HST 200gr:
    https://www.targetsportsusa.com/fede...-p-109095.aspx
    Last edited by Clusterfrack; 11-03-2019 at 11:24 AM.
    "You can never have too many knives." --Joe Ambercrombie
    Shabbat shalom, motherf***ers! --Mordechai Jefferson Carver

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