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Thread: Velocity threshold for bullets

  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by 0ddl0t View Post
    Specifically the use of homemade defensive ammo? Or ammo selection? Because the prosecution successfully (at least until appeal) used Harold Fish's 10mm hollowpoints against him:

    "And the jury had another issue to think about: Fish’s gun.

    The firearms investigator said that Fish’s gun — a 10mm — is more powerful than what police officers use and is not typically used for personal protection. And the ammunition Fish used to shoot Kuenzli three times, called “a hollow-point bullet,” is made to expand when it enters the body.

    When he decided to pull the trigger, the prosecutor said, Fish should have known what the consequences would be.

    Lessler: Mr. Fish knew well what a hollow-point bullet does.

    Larson: And the end product of his shooting is going to be death?

    Lessler: Yes.

    ...

    And this juror was disturbed by the type of bullets Fish used.

    Elliot: The whole hollow point thing bothered me. That bullet is designed to do as much damage as absolutely possible. It’s designed to kill.
    http://www.nbcnews.com/id/15199221/n...rail-evidence/
    I am aware of the Howard Fish shooting. That's not what I am looking for. I am looking for specific law enforcement or court documentation where the use of reloaded ammunition was specifically cited as a factor in forwarding charges or deciding guilt or liability. I am not interested in magazine/gun publication expert opinion on why it's a bad idea unless that opinion specifically describes a real world instance in which reloaded ammo was a deciding factor.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightvisionary View Post
    I am aware of the Howard Fish shooting. That's not what I am looking for. I am looking for specific law enforcement or court documentation where the use of reloaded ammunition was specifically cited as a factor in forwarding charges or deciding guilt or liability. I am not interested in magazine/gun publication expert opinion on why it's a bad idea unless that opinion specifically describes a real world instance in which reloaded ammo was a deciding factor.
    Massad Ayoob describes a specific case where the forensics vs shooter statement mismatch directly led to a shooter's account being called in to question which influenced the decision to charge the person. Factory ammo with an exemplar to test against would have resolved that mismatch.

    That said, you are asking for largely doesn't exist in the public domain. Prosecutors don't publish cliff notes of the factors of why they elected to pursue charges vs when they don't. I know of a specific case where "green tip" 5.56 was used and the prosecutor was angered by that. Charges were going to be filed regardless, but it's pretty likely it affected the offered plea. You'll find none of it online, or even in case files, because nobody is required to document that sort of thing or publish it. I know because I was lead detective and presented the case to the prosecutor. A much more in depth explanation of this sort of thing exists in the thread on gun modifications if you're interested. The Reader's Digest version is you're not going to see "because reloads..." but narrative building is how cases are won or lost, especially in front of juries.
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    Quote Originally Posted by UNM1136 View Post
    Maybe with talented students I would lube up with baby oil and then go at it.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by BehindBlueI's View Post
    Massad Ayoob describes a specific case where the forensics vs shooter statement mismatch directly led to a shooter's account being called in to question which influenced the decision to charge the person. Factory ammo with an exemplar to test against would have resolved that mismatch.

    That said, you are asking for largely doesn't exist in the public domain. Prosecutors don't publish cliff notes of the factors of why they elected to pursue charges vs when they don't. I know of a specific case where "green tip" 5.56 was used and the prosecutor was angered by that. Charges were going to be filed regardless, but it's pretty likely it affected the offered plea. You'll find none of it online, or even in case files, because nobody is required to document that sort of thing or publish it. I know because I was lead detective and presented the case to the prosecutor. A much more in depth explanation of this sort of thing exists in the thread on gun modifications if you're interested. The Reader's Digest version is you're not going to see "because reloads..." but narrative building is how cases are won or lost, especially in front of juries.
    Or they could test the remaining ammo to determine the answer. Most reloaders use published data and keep a reloading notebook. In my case the 500 rounds of 9mm handloaded Gold Dot 124+P all use 5.2 grains of Universal Clays and CCI small pistol primers Any round taken out of the can or magazines is going to perform exactly like the other 499 with a consistent velocity and standard deviation. At best I believe this to be a hypothetical issue. If not we would have several criminal and civil court transcripts to refer to that support that assertion. Ultimately gun writers exist for one purpose and that is to sell guns and ammunition. As gun owners the much greater danger that we can find many examples of is people using firearms in defensive situations that have not invested in some type of insurance to cover legal defense such as USCCA or similar and thus are not prepared to deal with the legal system after a shooting.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightvisionary View Post
    Or they could test the remaining ammo to determine the answer. Most reloaders use published data and keep a reloading notebook.
    Which you can't prove to the courts satisfaction is the load that was fired. I believe the phrase was "the defendant literally manufactured this 'evidence' " from the opposing attorney.

    Speer is a neutral 3rd party. You are not.
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    Quote Originally Posted by UNM1136 View Post
    Maybe with talented students I would lube up with baby oil and then go at it.

  5. #25
    Mr. Shovel Lover Hambo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightvisionary View Post
    Or they could test the remaining ammo to determine the answer.
    If part of your defense is that your reloads are the same as Speer commercial ammo, you'll have to pony up for testing that proves it.
    It's dangerous to challenge a system unless you're completely at peace with the thought that you're not going to miss it when it collapses.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Hambo View Post
    If part of your defense is that your reloads are the same as Speer commercial ammo, you'll have to pony up for testing that proves it.
    Wouldn't have to as the powder burn rate or powder stipling range wouldn't be part of my defense. Again, show me the court transcripts or news reports where a component hand loaded bullet made a good shoot a bad shoot in court. Otherwise we could argue this all day long like the supposed benefits or lack thereof on barrel break ins, 3K engine oil changes, and prayer. Show me the reports so we can do our best attempt at a gun forum peer review on this hypothesis. If you make a claim you must support that claim with evidence for it to have any validity. Please show us the evidence.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightvisionary View Post
    Wouldn't have to as the powder burn rate or powder stipling range wouldn't be part of my defense. Again, show me the court transcripts or news reports where a component hand loaded bullet made a good shoot a bad shoot in court. Otherwise we could argue this all day long like the supposed benefits or lack thereof on barrel break ins, 3K engine oil changes, and prayer. Show me the reports so we can do our best attempt at a gun forum peer review on this hypothesis. If you make a claim you must support that claim with evidence for it to have any validity. Please show us the evidence.
    If people who have a lot of time and experience working in the judicial system saying something is a bad isn’t enough to convince you of anything then I think the expression is “you do you”. Go on and larp on the border with your hand loads.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Caballoflaco View Post
    If people who have a lot of time and experience working in the judicial system saying something is a bad isn’t enough to convince you of anything then I think the expression is “you do you”. Go on and larp on the border with your hand loads.
    Meh, I have worked in the system. I had it drilled into my head enough times during inter agency firearms skills training that if the level of force is justified the tool does not matter. Are you a water dropper for Sinaloa?

  9. #29
    Mr. Shovel Lover Hambo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightvisionary View Post
    Wouldn't have to as the powder burn rate or powder stipling range wouldn't be part of my defense.
    You missed the point. You won't get charged with carrying reloaded ammo, but you could be characterized as someone for whom police JHP just wasn't deadly enough. Then it's on your attorney, and you financially, to refute that to twelve of your peers who know fuck all about ammunition.

    If you're up for extra criminal or civil fun and games, don't let us stop you.
    It's dangerous to challenge a system unless you're completely at peace with the thought that you're not going to miss it when it collapses.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hambo View Post
    You missed the point. You won't get charged with carrying reloaded ammo, but you could be characterized as someone for whom police JHP just wasn't deadly enough. Then it's on your attorney, and you financially, to refute that to twelve of your peers who know fuck all about ammunition.

    If you're up for extra criminal or civil fun and games, don't let us stop you.
    No man, he’s sure that even if he finds himself in the situation of having to justifiably shoot a 15 year old that’s trying to kill him with a rock, that no DA or grand jury would even let it go to trial so it doesn’t matter what ammo he uses.

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