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Thread: Knives and the 21 foot rule

  1. #11
    Site Supporter Rex G's Avatar
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    My Shooting Incident. X-Ring Hit. 38-39 Feet Traveled, After Hit!

    FWIW, my opponent managed to stagger, stiff-legged, for 38 feet after I shot with a 125-grain .357 Magnum JHP, through his heart and left lung. True, he violently twisted when struck, wandered away to my left, and was no further threat, but, he finally dropped because he finally bled out. The last phrase is my opinion.

    Even so, he was ambulatory for 38 or 39 feet of distance, after taking am X-ring hit from the cartridge that document-ably ruled the streets, in its time. 21 feet, which is the Tueller Drill distance, plus 38 to 39 feet, is 59 to 60 feet. My math says twenty yards, for an defender who is drawing and firing in 1.5 seconds, plus 38 to 39 feet of travel by the attacker. (My attacker was much closer, and advancing steadily at a walk, not charging, and my draw time was not part of the equation, as I drew before he decided to select me as his target.)

    I actually considered this a successful stop, as he was no longer a credible, imminent threat after he was hit. It was like I could have stood still, and let him move away, after the hit. I moved with him, off his left flank, ready to shoot again. No emotion; just determination, as I remember it. (I think that having fired only once, helped me when the incident went before a grand jury.)

    I believe that a lesser cartridge might not have resulted in such a stop, but that is speculation. This was before really good controlled-expansion JHPs existed, and this bullet shed much of itself, to say the least. (It would have been bad form to ask to see the autopsy report, and to ask to see the bullet, which was being held for evidence. A colleague had been publicly “outed” for doing those things, after one of his shooting incidents; not a career-enhancing thing.)

    For reference, the weapon was a 4” Ruger GP100. (Now y’all know why I like the GP100, Rugers in general, revolvers in general, and .357 Mag ammo.)

    For reference, the cartridge was a Federal Hi-Shok, not Hydra Shok, Jacketed Hollow Cavity, as loaded in the early Nineties. The bullet went to pieces. The largest piece ended up in his left arm, having exited the torso, and entered the arm. (At the time of the shot, his left arm was chambered for a thrust, as the right side of his body was angled toward me. A fellow officer’s snatched SL-20 was in my opponent’s right hand, held high, ready for a downward strike.)

    There were pieces of bullet jacket found in the plume of blood that had spewed, several feet beyond his under-arm area.

    This is gurgle-able. The Houston Chronicle article stated the facts. The national business magazine fictionalized it. His name was Montoya. The “G” in Rex G is the first letter in my surname, the first three letters of which are “Gig.” The second half of my surname if spelled “out.” I split them to keep this post from being so easily found in the same searches. (I have a very rare French surname, a Gallicized form of a German surname; not an uncommon thing along the Rhine River.)

    Sorry for the length of this post, but if I am going to mention identifying details, I want to have plenty of context.

    Edited to correct title of my post, and to add clarifying detail to the narrative.
    Last edited by Rex G; 09-05-2019 at 12:22 PM.
    Retar’d LE. Kinesthetic dufus.

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  2. #12
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    The most applicable part of the 21 feet in the 21 foot rule is not needlessly closing the reactionary gap on armed subjects.

    A use of force expert witness can explain and demonstrate why the 21 foot rule really isn’t a rule and shooting at 50 feet could be reasonable, what he can’t do is explain how an officer moved to within few feet of an armed subject to issue verbal commands. Needlessly creeping in on a stationary armed subject is a very real problem. It's dangerous to the officer(s) and can lead to the officer being accused of manufacturing the need to use deadly force.
    Whether you think you can or you can't, you're probably right.

  3. #13
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    the Tueller drill

    Dennis Tueller published his article "How Close is too close" in SWAT magazine back in 1983 or so.

    I first heard of it when I went to a Police Marksman Association sponsored Officer Survival Seminar that was instructed by Massad Ayoob and Ray Chapman in 1985,

    Calibre Press made a training film called "Surviving Edged Weapons" a few years later that was very influential.

    At the time, the drill was kind of revolutionary because lots of cops didn't really realize how dangerous edged weapons were, and how quickly a suspect could close the distance from 7 yards. I took LFI-1 in 2000. We performed the Tueller Drill one morning on grass damp from rain overnight. From a standing start at 7 yards, most people could close the distance in about 1.4 seconds. We had a 65 year old guy with bad knees who was able to cover the 7 yards in 1.7 yards.

    It should not be viewed as a hard and fast rule, just an indicator how quickly people can move from a standing start and how long it takes you to draw a holstered handgun and (maybe) get on target (even when you know what's about to happen)

  4. #14
    Site Supporter hufnagel's Avatar
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    https://www.full30.com/watch/MDIxMjI...til-the-threat

    I have no educated commentary to add, other than he had a knife, he got shot (at least once) and went down, he got up, he had time to "think" about his next moves, and he got close enough to (potentially) stab the officer that shot him. I have questions, but i'll leave them for a potential other thread on this incident.
    Rules to live by: 1. Eat meat, 2. Shoot guns, 3. Fire, 4. Gasoline, 5. Make juniors
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  5. #15
    I've always wondered if that ridiculous 21' rule took into account blade length. For instance, if the perp had a sword with a 3' blade, would that 21' rule now become the 24' rule? If so, did they have a field calculator for liability purposes?
    Last edited by Galbraith; 09-06-2019 at 05:44 AM.

  6. #16
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    Does anybody have a link to the actual decision? I don't trust Calibre Press to interpret the 9ths decisions without my own perusal.

  7. #17
    banana republican blues's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paherne View Post
    Does anybody have a link to the actual decision? I don't trust Calibre Press to interpret the 9ths decisions without my own perusal.
    Try this:


    https://www.courtlistener.com/pdf/20...f_san_jose.pdf


    It may not be all you're looking for but it's all I can do at the moment.
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  8. #18
    Hopefully you have the gun out at 21 feet. Tried it from the holster at the range, buddy tapped me on the shoulder, he ran I drew and fired. He was far from athletic but still covered about 21 feet. A guy with a knife is very dangerous......

  9. #19
    Site Supporter Lon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paherne View Post
    Does anybody have a link to the actual decision? I don't trust Calibre Press to interpret the 9ths decisions without my own perusal.
    There’s a link in the CP article to the full decision. Towards end of article.
    Formerly known as xpd54.
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