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Thread: "Why the .45 ACP Failed"

  1. #61
    Member JHC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GreggW View Post
    The recoil usually slows me down enough to make more accurate hits on more difficult shots.

    Not everything has to be better to enjoy it.
    I have seen the same phenom when I was only shooting Glocks in volume. Shooting almost all 9mm then occasionally I'd break out my G22 for some tests scored. I have very frequently seen a small increase in time but a significant decrease in points dropped with the G22. I figured it was that effect you mention. Then Kevin B coached that exclusive 9mm shooting "may" lead one to "cheat their grip" some and that must be watched out for.

    I also factor in shooting at "assessment speed" (call it .30-.35 sec) vs setting a PR in one's Bill Drill . . .
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  2. #62
    Hokey / Ancient JAD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drifting Fate View Post
    . One of the big selling points I keep hearing about the 9mm is that, "it's easier to hit with." .
    Yeah, I never get that. 9 is easier to /split/ with, about which I do not care.

    9 is cheaper for non-reloaders and easier on the wrists when shot from a light gun. Those are for most people fairly insignificant advantages.

    The big deal with 9 is that it is at home in some really attractive guns. The Glock platform, for example, is awesome in 9 — shootable and concealable with huge capacity.

    The 1911 is awesome in .45. A factor we don’t talk about is that its magazine is far easier to conceal than a Glock’s
    — to the point that I don’t carry a spare with a Glock, where I absolutely do with a 1911.

    Either can be had in the other cartridge. Either is... ok, but it seems forced to me.
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  3. #63
    Tactical Nobody Guerrero's Avatar
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    I'll defer to Paul Gomez (RIP)


  4. #64
    In the words of Paul: " High capacity give you 1 less thing to f*ck with in the early part of your gunfight," and " Ammo has improved since you started in the 1980s."

    This was instrumental in moving me from GL30 (10+1) to GL19 (15+1).
    Last edited by 1slow; 09-04-2019 at 09:21 AM.

  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by GJM View Post
    While we are discussing caliber, I think it is really a platform issue.

    The 1911 is optimized for .45 acp, while most of the best polymer pistols are optimized for 9mm. If your heart is in 1911 pistols, .45 makes perfect sense. If you prefer polymer, 9mm is probably the way to go.

    Bill England is a smart, thoughtful guy, with the wound ballistics perspective of a physician and an extensive training background in handguns and rifles. I do believe he prefers the 1911. At times, I have joked that die in the wool 1911 guys believe the .45 cartridge performs better when launched from a 1911.

    I love .45, but in the form of a USP launching Super loads.
    It boils down to the above observation. Use what you are proficient at. Pick your handgun...... then pick your self-defense load. Try different loads to get the shootability and accuracy you are comfortable with. This can be as complicated as we want to make it.

  6. #66
    Site Supporter Trooper224's Avatar
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    This thread gives me a sad.
    We may lose and we may win, but we will never be here again.......

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by JHC View Post
    My thoughts about that .45 vs Moro's legend must credit @HCM for turning this light on. He observed about a spectacularly dramatic fast knock down of an armed robber in a security cam vid of a gunshop robbery (attempted) where the elder gunshop man drew a 1911 and straight up DECKED that mutherFKR with the first shot. HCM's adroit comment was that perhaps the legend of the .45 grew partly from the centerline hits users were able to deliver with it.

    Segue to the Moro uprising - I understand that a good many Colt SAA's were pressed into service. I can easily imagine the troops weaned on them making better centered hits straight away vs cranking away double action with the .38s.


    @HCM - I posted before spotting you making the same point. Oops. Meh, it's a point worth making twice maybe.
    Similarly, better placed hits with 9mm may help explain why real world shooting results with modern ammo tend to be a wash between 9/40/45.

  8. #68
    Modding this sack of shit BehindBlueI's's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drifting Fate View Post
    But, in asking your question, you've skewed the underlying question from "what causes the most damage per trigger pull" to "what gun/caliber package produces better stops"?
    OP:

    The crux of his article is in the first paragraph: "Results from the street have shown that there's no real difference in overall stopping performance....so why is the 9mm Parabellum becoming so popular? First, it is not a bad defensive round as the Braga study demonstrates (but don't try and con me that it is just as effective as a .45 ACP).
    You seem to be having a different conversation than the rest of us. Of course there are (minor) differences. They are irrelevant to winning gun fights. Same as the proponents of capacity for switching from .40 to 9mm. Yay, I have 2 more rounds in my magazine. Number of officers killed in the history of my department because they ran out of ammunition: zero. Is 17 different from 15? Yes. Does it make the gun more effective on the street? No. I'm not arguing the data shows 17=15. I'm arguing the data shows it's completely irrelevant.

    Now what I will agree with is ballistics gel, etc. isn't the entirety of street performance. Gel blocks don't have a psychological response. I still suspect a louder shot and brighter muzzle flash increases the chances of a psychological stop, and most stops (even those that are ultimately lethal) are psychological first. Remember even a heart shot leaves a dedicated gunman seconds to keep pulling the trigger, if they gut through it, until the lights go out.
    Sorta around sometimes for some of your shitty mod needs.

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by TGS View Post
    Okay, unfortunately you've got some bad information there which might be driving your view.

    There were two distinct wars within the Philippine-American War. The first was the actual Philippine American war that only lasted until 1902 and featured the lion's share of the fighting, with over 4,000 Americans killed....not 131.

    Then there was the conflict afterwards going until 1913, which was the Moro Rebellion......which was part of the Philippine-American War, but distinctly separate according to the US military. The entirety of the Moro Rebellion saw ~130 Americans killed.

    The reason the most number of Americans killed during the Moro Rebellion occurred in 1906 is because of a large battle over several days in March where the US decisively engaged over 1000 Moros, killing ~900 of them. I think it was called Duro Bajo, or Buro Dajo, something like that. IIRC, a little over 20 Americans were killed in that battle......so you're looking at nearly 1/6th of the American death toll from the entire Moro Rebellion in that singular battle. There simply wasn't many more Moros after that battle to do much killing of Americans, which is why there wasn't that much fighting after.

    So, now that we've got that out of the way....

    Trying to equate the effectiveness of the .45LC with the overall casualty counts of an entire war is fucking ludicrous. It was a secondary weapon, sparingly issued to officers and some NCOs. The mental gymnastics anyone would have to go through to equate correlation with causation on that is astounding given there are so many other things that account for deaths in war.....namely op-tempo and logistics, like when you've got some retard officer that has too much motivation and not enough brains and literally kills all of his troops by working them too hard (as well as actually executing all of his Filipino logistics "troops").

    ON TOP OF THAT...….being that the .45LC SAA was only retired in whole by the US Cavalry. It was still the standard issue weapon for many years with the US Infantry. The Philippine-American War was largely fought by the US National Guard, and I'm not aware of any mystical magical happenings where the .45LCs they were using were magically replaced upon arrival to the Philippines with the M1892. AFAIK, the idea that it was ONLY 1892s being used in country until the SAA was re-issued is a falsehood in its own.



    You Heretic with your thinking ways!

    TGS....really dig your "history lessons."
    Last edited by 11B10; 09-04-2019 at 10:07 AM.

  10. #70
    Member JHC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RJ View Post
    Yeah he made that point in the P&S Snubby Podcast I listened to past weekend.

    I’m thinking of designing a shooting target with like 4” circles or something like that to practice on. Or maybe just the black on a B8 bull. And then shoot drills where a miss is a fail.
    Have you ever used this target from VTAC?

    Attachment 42150

    That is my favorite. Kevin B put me onto them and I can't quit. Note that USPSA scoring zones are marked on it also. It's a two sided target with several B8s on the back side.

    https://www.amazon.com/Advanced-Trai...gateway&sr=8-2
    Last edited by JHC; 09-04-2019 at 12:38 PM.
    “Remember, being healthy is basically just dying as slowly as possible,” Ricky Gervais

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