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Thread: "Why the .45 ACP Failed"

  1. #11
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    For the study the bottom half of Table 2 seems to be the most telling aspect.

    Quite certain larger calibers are more potent but agree with above posts that OIS data is a better way to compare (even better still with things like CCW shootings, medium game hunting, etc. which are even less likely to have a "mag dump")

    We all already know multiple rounds and rounds actually hitting head, neck, chest are more likely to be fatal. Tiny pistols, which are still less likely to work for several rounds or to get several accurate hits even when working - are acting as longer reach shanks...more or less. Knife wounds often more impressive/gruesome.

    Since the beginning of bullets - more momentum = better at tracking straight, especially with bone contact involved, with more mojo to reach spine, heart, brain from multiple angles. The primary benefit of a larger caliber isn't the diameter.

  2. #12
    There is no appreciable difference in the effectiveness of the 9mm and 45 ACP cartridges. - Dr Vincent Di Maio

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vincent_Di_Maio

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by 0ddl0t View Post
    I would not expect the average criminal to load a good duty round - the key assumption implicit in the "all service calibers are good enough" argument.
    I dunno about that - the assumption implicit in the argument, that is. Or are you arguing a .45 ball round would be significantly better than, say, a 9mm ball? As long as we're comparing same to same, is there really that much difference in service pistol calibres? I'm leaning towards "nope", myself. (But I am, of course, no expert in this topic.)

  4. #14
    Deadeye Dick Clusterfrack's Avatar
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    For me .45 ACP is a useless caliber. I sold all my ammo and components years ago.
    "You can never have too many knives." --Joe Ambercrombie
    Shabbat shalom, motherf***ers! --Mordechai Jefferson Carver

  5. #15

    An interesting parallel...

    Quote Originally Posted by Tokarev View Post
    For a useful scientific study, we cannot simply look at gelatin or just corpses. Doing a prospective study where a couple hundred humans get shot with different cartridges won't pass the institutional review board or get funded by NIH. But there are good retrospective studies that do this. But to be a good study, it needs to avoid selection criteria that influence the results. I was impressed with the recent Braga study in JAMA:

    https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jam...rticle/2688536
    That's an interesting research paper.

    Performing a quick/informal ANOVA* (analysis of variance)―

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    ―of the actual lethality reflected by Braga's data (Boston 2010 - 2014), [I used only the caliber subsets that had an n > 5 which reduces the usable statistical population from n = 367 to n = 361**] and comparing it to the US ARMY BRL P[I/H] model (Dziemian, 1963) there is surprising agreement between the US ARMY BRL P[I/H] model and the actual data as presented in Table 2 of the paper here―

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    This analysis considers lethality only, but not time to incapacitation. They are two very different functions of terminal performance.

    *For the purpose of this ANOVA, it was assumed that since criminals tend to use the cheapest available ammunition, non-deforming FMJs and LRNs were modeled for all calibers except the .357 Magnum which was modeled as a 125-grain JHP @ 1,350 fps that expanded to 1.66 times its pre-impact diameter.

    **.44 Remington Magnum, 10mm and 7.62x39 sub-sets were excluded due to insufficient population of n < 5
    Last edited by the Schwartz; 09-03-2019 at 02:29 PM.
    ''Politics is for the present, but an equation is for eternity.'' ―Albert Einstein

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  6. #16
    Deadeye Dick Clusterfrack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by the Schwartz View Post
    That's an interesting research paper.

    Performing a quick/informal ANOVA (analysis of variance)―
    Nice work. However, what about the likely effect of correlation between shooter skill and caliber used? For example, maybe people who shoot .357 Mag are unusually skilled and those who shoot .22LR are poor shots?
    "You can never have too many knives." --Joe Ambercrombie
    Shabbat shalom, motherf***ers! --Mordechai Jefferson Carver

  7. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Clusterfrack View Post
    Nice work. However, what about the likely effect of correlation between shooter skill and caliber used? For example, maybe people who shoot .357 Mag are unusually skilled and those who shoot .22LR are poor shots?
    Thank you, @Clusterfrack.

    It's certainly a valid question, however the cited paper does not provide the data needed to perform that particular analysis.







    Of course, we all know that 10mm =
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    Last edited by the Schwartz; 09-03-2019 at 02:11 PM.
    ''Politics is for the present, but an equation is for eternity.'' ―Albert Einstein

    Full disclosure per the Pistol-Forum CoC: I am the author of Quantitative Ammunition Selection.

  8. #18
    Site Supporter 0ddl0t's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by That Guy View Post
    Or are you arguing a .45 ball round would be significantly better than, say, a 9mm ball?
    That was pretty well established in the 1890s when the US had to hastily reissue .45saa's when it became obvious the replacement .38lc was not effective enough in the Philippines.


    In the 1930s a pair named Fairbairn and Sykes developed the double-tap technique to compensate for the Shanghai Police's anemic .380 colt 1908's.

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by 0ddl0t View Post
    That was pretty well established in the 1890s when the US had to hastily reissue .45saa's when it became obvious the replacement .38lc was not effective enough in the Philippines.
    If the .45LC was the answer, then why did American troops continue to get hacked to death by Moros after the re-issuance of the .45LC?

    Answer: Because it didn't make a difference.

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  10. #20
    Site Supporter ST911's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BehindBlueI's View Post
    1) Hole size =/= rate of bleed. The body can swell and cut off blood flow. It's designed to fight wounded but that capacity can obviously be overcome. Different areas of the body have different amounts of pressure behind them and different sizes of blood vessels and different tissue types that respond differently to injury. The body isn't a bucket where a bigger hole leaks faster. The body is more of a hydraulic system wrapped in sponge that can swell or contract.
    About as good of a simple lay-explanation of this as I've heard.
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