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Thread: "Why the .45 ACP Failed"

  1. #221
    I am one of those codgers downloading my .45s to be able to keep shooting them comfortably alongside the 9mms.
    My carry load when I get out the old Commander is the Hornady 200 gr XTP at 900 fps. My practice load is even lighter, a Major 200 at 850. My match load is much lighter, a Minor 200 at 700.

    A piece of Codger Trivia; the Relative Incapacitation Index study done by the National Institute of Law Enforcement and Criminal Justice with "Computer Man" and 20% gelatin, ca 1970 concluded that .45 ACP midrange 185 gr SWC at 775 fps was more effective than hardball. The study has been heavily debunked and there are a lot more and better .45 hollowpoints than the Norma I carried in the chamber of my 1911 (It wouldn't feed from the magazine of the old GI.)
    Code Name: JET STREAM

  2. #222
    Member jd950's Avatar
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    For those who reload, this may not be useful, but for those with recoil sensitivity issues who want to stay with .45, it might be worth looking into Barnes XPB 185 gr JHP, which is on the recommended list. it is a +p load but has less recoil than 230gr ammo. Also, Buffalo Barnes Standard Pressure 160 gr. TAC-XP might be worth a look. It is quite expensive and I don't know if its performance is adequate, but generally I think the Barnes all copper rounds tend to do well. Perhaps someone else can comment on its performance compared to the 185 +p.

  3. #223
    THE THIRST MUTILATOR Nephrology's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Redhat View Post
    Post shooting medical examination can show how much damage was done but that's after the incident. I'm much more interested in the effect on target at the moment of the incident. Am I wrong here?...is that info even reliably available?

    Thanks
    In my experience this isn't something you can reliably predict. Bullets do weird shit. I just really wouldn't worry about it.

    It's nice we have all this information but I DocGKR has it right. Once you meet a certain minimum threshold it doesn't really matter what centerfire pistol cartridge you choose. I've certainly never seen it be a factor of clinical relevance. Just pick one.

  4. #224
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    It's seems popular to tout the improvements made to modern 9mm ammunition but have these same improvements not been made to 45ACP as well? Plus the .45 does make bigger holes in stuff.

  5. #225
    Modding this sack of shit BehindBlueI's's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Redhat View Post
    It's seems popular to tout the improvements made to modern 9mm ammunition but have these same improvements not been made to 45ACP as well? Plus the .45 does make bigger holes in stuff.
    This has been addressed ad nauseum.

    In real short terms: Improvements: Sort of, but not to the degree of 9mm because heavier/slower projectiles don't have as much to gain from bonding to eliminate fragmentation, etc. Holes: Generally, but not always, and not enough to be relevant.
    Sorta around sometimes for some of your shitty mod needs.

  6. #226
    Quote Originally Posted by Redhat View Post
    It's seems popular to tout the improvements made to modern 9mm ammunition but have these same improvements not been made to 45ACP as well?
    Probably not quite as aggressively. Seems like most of the motivation comes from places like the FBI and others to make a 9mm bullet mimic the performance of a 45 bullet. OTOH people are generally content with the performance of the 45 probably not as much money being spent on research. After all, ammo companies sell ammo, and they are gonna be just as coin operated as any business.

    IMO this means enough advancements have been made to pretty well blur the line. 45 never quit doing what it does, but 9mm can probably be counted on to do more than it used to do.

    ETA:
    Quote Originally Posted by BehindBlueI's View Post
    Improvements: Sort of, but not to the degree of 9mm because heavier/slower projectiles don't have as much to gain from bonding to eliminate fragmentation, etc.
    Back to my financial argument, we probably tend to underestimate the amount of time, effort, and money that it surely took to get where we are today. Probably iteration after iteration after iteration of subtle changes to things like alloy percentages and jacket thicknesses, in an effort to get the big contracts. Maybe sometimes it trickles down but all the revenue focus has got to be 9mm these days.
    Last edited by mmc45414; 10-19-2019 at 01:47 PM.

  7. #227
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    Quote Originally Posted by BehindBlueI's View Post
    This has been addressed ad nauseum.

    In real short terms: Improvements: Sort of, but not to the degree of 9mm because heavier/slower projectiles don't have as much to gain from bonding to eliminate fragmentation, etc. Holes: Generally, but not always, and not enough to be relevant.
    Not relevant how...is permanent wound cavity not a thing anymore?

  8. #228
    Modding this sack of shit BehindBlueI's's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Redhat View Post
    Not relevant how...is permanent wound cavity not a thing anymore?
    At least read the first page of the thread.
    Sorta around sometimes for some of your shitty mod needs.

  9. #229
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nephrology View Post
    In my experience this isn't something you can reliably predict. Bullets do weird shit. I just really wouldn't worry about it.

    It's nice we have all this information but I DocGKR has it right. Once you meet a certain minimum threshold it doesn't really matter what centerfire pistol cartridge you choose. I've certainly never seen it be a factor of clinical relevance. Just pick one.
    Qft

    I've never seen an ER colleague shake in fear because their patient was shot with a .45 and not a 9mm...in fact, mostly they can't tell the difference and the caliber itself means fuck all in the grand scheme of trying to stabilize them.





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  10. #230
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    Quote Originally Posted by BehindBlueI's View Post
    At least read the first page of the thread.
    I did, way back when it was posted. My latest comments were in reference to post #223, which you replied to.

    I'm interested in your point...I just don't know what it is.

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