Page 17 of 21 FirstFirst ... 71516171819 ... LastLast
Results 161 to 170 of 202

Thread: "Why the .45 ACP Failed"

  1. #161
    Quote Originally Posted by Pistol Pete 10 View Post
    The .45 did not fail. It's still around and living strong. The 9 MM is cheaper, it's easier to shoot and it can hold 20 rounds of ammo. This makes it better for spray n police shooting. It's better for competitions, 20 rounds of low recoil ammo, it's easier for girls to shoot too.
    Two strikes in one day, both anti LE. Let me know when you’re ready to be mature and respectful.

  2. #162
    Site Supporter
    Join Date
    Jul 2016
    Location
    Away, away, away, down.......
    Quote Originally Posted by BehindBlueI's View Post
    Remembering that 147gr wasn't always a thing (designed for SMGs originally, IIRC) the available options were roughly half the weight of common .45 ball. What I've seen on the streets from cheap ball ammo is the lightweight 9mm fragments much easier while the slower, fatter .45 sticks together and retains enough mass to keep on driving through. Even it sheds it's jacket it stays heavy enough to matter.

    I think it's evident at this point that bullet design matters more than caliber, which is why all the common duty calibers are fungible for real world use.
    Yup, American ball ammo is, as you said, manufactured to be as cheap as possible. Europeans (who have been killing with the 9mm since the early 1900’s ) have produced 9mm ball loads with thicker jackets designed to hold together and penetrate better, an extreme example of this is Swedish M39 9mm ammo.

  3. #163
    Quote Originally Posted by BehindBlueI's View Post
    Round nose anything deflects easier. I've seen .45 ride the skull, ride ribs, etc. I've seen the same behavior from 9mm ball, .380 ball, etc. Anecdotally .40 ball seems less likely to ride bone, probably because of the flat point of even cheap ammo (and remember most real world shootings are with cheap ammo).
    Quote Originally Posted by Hunter Rose View Post
    Doc's sticky says .45 is good at making big holes and is often better after barriers, his testing shows 45 HST expands larger than 9mm HST while penetrating the same, SMEs have stated 45 will break a large bone like a femur better.
    Searched the thread for "bone" and these (two above, one below) are the posts that came up as relevant. In a 49-states version of wild animal defense, which seems to be black bears, big cats, wild swine, various oversize reptiles, and the like, due to the likely speed and violence of the attacker, hitting the off switch is crucial. It may be protected by tissue more difficult to penetrate than the pig/human flesh that gel is engineered to simulate. In particular, bear/pig skulls may need to be penetrated. I don't know anything really about gator scales, but I reckon they're a little tougher than human skin. And the impact may be at an oblique angle, given their typical geometry.

    In such a context, if we're not going to go all the way to a Lehigh Defense bullet, is there an advantage to having 230 grains of hammer to break things versus 147 or 180? i.e., Would it be worthwhile outside the northern Rockies to choose the USP .45 with 12 rounds of HST +P vs. a 9mm or .40 version of the same gun with 15 @147 or 13 @165/180?

    Secondary scenario: You're limited to 10 rounds in all of them. Does the greater rate of repeated tries outweigh any advantage that may exist in breaking bone to get to the switch? What if your shooting at "assessment speed" is roughly equivalent?

    Quote Originally Posted by Caballoflaco View Post
    Yup, American ball ammo is, as you said, manufactured to be as cheap as possible. Europeans (who have been killing with the 9mm since the early 1900’s ) have produced 9mm ball loads with thicker jackets designed to hold together and penetrate better, an extreme example of this is Swedish M39 9mm ammo.
    Tying to BBI's comment above, I've read about the original design of the 9mm round being a truncated cone that was perceived as being significantly more effective in battle than round-nosed ball. There are three such loads available that I'm aware of.

    https://www.targetsportsusa.com/fioc...-p-109334.aspx

    https://www.targetsportsusa.com/winc...-p-109471.aspx

    https://www.gtdist.com/hornady-9mm-5...ass-135gr.html
    (Hornady also has a similarly shaped 220gr .45 Auto load.)

    AE 147gr used to be, but it seems no longer is (and may include other undesireable product variation).

    All the 147 grain bullets I'm aware of have some degree of flat nose, and some others of various weights, but they all have rounded ogives. And they vary widely in the diameter of the flat meplat and the radius at the edge. I'm not aware of any being bonded.

    And I found this FMJ/SWC in .45 Auto that I'd never seen before:
    https://www.targetsportsusa.com/fede...5b-p-3818.aspx

    If one was going for "barrier" (=heavy bone) penetration in the target without going full solid copper, as well as seeking more tissue disruption than a nice, blimp-shaped FMJ, is some variety of flat nose such as these worth testing?
    .
    -----------------------------------------
    ^^^ DAO dork ^^^

  4. #164
    Site Supporter
    Join Date
    Sep 2017
    Location
    South Louisiana
    Re: the .45 SWC above, it’s target ammo most often used in Bullseye. IIRC the velocity runs about 750 fps.

  5. #165
    Quote Originally Posted by RevolverRob View Post
    Actually I have a couple of hundred rounds of of 124 +P HST and I’m debating whether or not to spring for a case of 124-grain GECO which runs right at NATO velocity. But I decided I have enough HST regardless if 124 or 147 to see me through a bit.
    I am nervous about Geco centerfire. I have some .38 SPL and some .357M that doesn't appear to have been crimped after seating. Don't have to explain to you how those are problematic in opposite ways, whether loaded in a revolver or a lever gun.

    I had a case of .380 that was a good price but had a ton of failures to feed. I got a case gauge and figured out that they weren't crimped after seating. Ran every round that failed the case gauge through a Redding crimp die and it's been GTG. So based on the same area of defect in three different calibers, I expect it in anything they make. I can't run them through the press fast enough to cover any cost savings that might be realized by buying Geco over another brand.

    I still like their .22LR at TSUSA. Have to wipe the grease off the noses with a paper towel (slide the rack out of the box on the bench nose-up and do the whole box at once) to keep them from wanting to stick down in the magazine and not be picked up by the slide ("click"), but with that done, they've been great. If I remember, the cases say RWS.
    .
    -----------------------------------------
    ^^^ DAO dork ^^^

  6. #166
    Site Supporter
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Location
    Illinois
    To be honest, and this probably means I'm killed on the streets, but I wouldn't be stressed out carrying a 1911 loaded with 8+1 200gr SWCs going around 850fps plus a spare mag.

    But I prefer to have 17+1 rounds of 124gr HSTs. Plus a spare mag

    Sent from my moto g(6) using Tapatalk

  7. #167
    Site Supporter RevolverRob's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    Baddest Part of Town...
    Quote Originally Posted by OlongJohnson View Post
    Searched the thread for "bone" and these (two above, one below) are the posts that came up as relevant. In a 49-states version of wild animal defense, which seems to be black bears, big cats, wild swine, various oversize reptiles, and the like, due to the likely speed and violence of the attacker, hitting the off switch is crucial. It may be protected by tissue more difficult to penetrate than the pig/human flesh that gel is engineered to simulate. In particular, bear/pig skulls may need to be penetrated. I don't know anything really about gator scales, but I reckon they're a little tougher than human skin. And the impact may be at an oblique angle, given their typical geometry.

    In such a context, if we're not going to go all the way to a Lehigh Defense bullet, is there an advantage to having 230 grains of hammer to break things versus 147 or 180? i.e., Would it be worthwhile outside the northern Rockies to choose the USP .45 with 12 rounds of HST +P vs. a 9mm or .40 version of the same gun with 15 @147 or 13 @165/180?
    Gators basically HAVE to be shot at the back of the head at the base of the skull. Most rounds deflect off of them otherwise. If you can get to that spot a .22 will do the job.

    There are some pigs out there where a USP loaded with +P HSTs would be a comforting back-up to a rifle or slug loaded shotgun.

    Secondary scenario: You're limited to 10 rounds in all of them. Does the greater rate of repeated tries outweigh any advantage that may exist in breaking bone to get to the switch? What if your shooting at "assessment speed" is roughly equivalent?
    In this situation all .45 for me.



    Tying to BBI's comment above, I've read about the original design of the 9mm round being a truncated cone that was perceived as being significantly more effective in battle than round-nosed ball. There are three such loads available that I'm aware of.

    https://www.targetsportsusa.com/fioc...-p-109334.aspx

    https://www.targetsportsusa.com/winc...-p-109471.aspx

    https://www.gtdist.com/hornady-9mm-5...ass-135gr.html
    (Hornady also has a similarly shaped 220gr .45 Auto load.)

    AE 147gr used to be, but it seems no longer is (and may include other undesireable product variation).

    All the 147 grain bullets I'm aware of have some degree of flat nose, and some others of various weights, but they all have rounded ogives. And they vary widely in the diameter of the flat meplat and the radius at the edge. I'm not aware of any being bonded.

    And I found this FMJ/SWC in .45 Auto that I'd never seen before:
    https://www.targetsportsusa.com/fede...5b-p-3818.aspx

    If one was going for "barrier" (=heavy bone) penetration in the target without going full solid copper, as well as seeking more tissue disruption than a nice, blimp-shaped FMJ, is some variety of flat nose such as these worth testing?
    A 255-grain hard cast flat point or Keith-style SWC at 900-1000 fps is .45 +P, at 1100-1200 is a .45 Super, and 1300-1400 is .460 Rowland. And they are all viable loads. The same Keith SWC at 1100 is a warm .45 Long Colt load suitable for black bear or even Grizzly defense especially when supplemented with a shotgun.
    Last edited by RevolverRob; 09-10-2019 at 11:59 PM.
    "P-f: I lurked for wonderful combat pistolcraft advice, but I ponied up cash for my daily dose of Dada." - Baldanders

  8. #168
    Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    NE Ohio
    Quote Originally Posted by OlongJohnson View Post
    Searched the thread for "bone" and these (two above, one below) are the posts that came up as relevant. In a 49-states version of wild animal defense, which seems to be black bears, big cats, wild swine, various oversize reptiles, and the like, due to the likely speed and violence of the attacker, hitting the off switch is crucial. It may be protected by tissue more difficult to penetrate than the pig/human flesh that gel is engineered to simulate. In particular, bear/pig skulls may need to be penetrated. I don't know anything really about gator scales, but I reckon they're a little tougher than human skin. And the impact may be at an oblique angle, given their typical geometry.

    In such a context, if we're not going to go all the way to a Lehigh Defense bullet, is there an advantage to having 230 grains of hammer to break things versus 147 or 180? i.e., Would it be worthwhile outside the northern Rockies to choose the USP .45 with 12 rounds of HST +P vs. a 9mm or .40 version of the same gun with 15 @147 or 13 @165/180?

    Secondary scenario: You're limited to 10 rounds in all of them. Does the greater rate of repeated tries outweigh any advantage that may exist in breaking bone to get to the switch? What if your shooting at "assessment speed" is roughly equivalent?



    Tying to BBI's comment above, I've read about the original design of the 9mm round being a truncated cone that was perceived as being significantly more effective in battle than round-nosed ball. There are three such loads available that I'm aware of.

    https://www.targetsportsusa.com/fioc...-p-109334.aspx

    https://www.targetsportsusa.com/winc...-p-109471.aspx

    https://www.gtdist.com/hornady-9mm-5...ass-135gr.html
    (Hornady also has a similarly shaped 220gr .45 Auto load.)

    AE 147gr used to be, but it seems no longer is (and may include other undesireable product variation).

    All the 147 grain bullets I'm aware of have some degree of flat nose, and some others of various weights, but they all have rounded ogives. And they vary widely in the diameter of the flat meplat and the radius at the edge. I'm not aware of any being bonded.

    And I found this FMJ/SWC in .45 Auto that I'd never seen before:
    https://www.targetsportsusa.com/fede...5b-p-3818.aspx

    If one was going for "barrier" (=heavy bone) penetration in the target without going full solid copper, as well as seeking more tissue disruption than a nice, blimp-shaped FMJ, is some variety of flat nose such as these worth testing?
    For black bears, pigs, etc. heavy for caliber JHP's geared towards deep, straight-line penetration have worked great over and over again. Especially XTPs, which are also at the top in regards to consistent accuracy and feeding.

    They are more likely to put a 200-400lbs animal down quickly than a flat nose FMJ or big flowering JHP.

  9. #169
    Site Supporter Nephrology's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    Gateway to the West
    It's vaguely amazing we are still talking 9mm vs .45 on this forum in 2019...

  10. #170
    LE Forum Moderator BehindBlueI's's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2015
    Location
    Midwest
    Quote Originally Posted by Nephrology View Post
    It's vaguely amazing we are still talking 9mm vs .45 on this forum in 2019...
    We'll still have "is your j-frame enough" and "1911 vs Glock" discussions, too. They are as reliable as small talk about the weather.
    L'otters are not afraid.
    WWOMJD?

    Quote Originally Posted by UNM1136 View Post
    Maybe with talented students I would lube up with baby oil and then go at it.

User Tag List

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •