"Why the .45 ACP Failed"

[Guerrero]

@RevolverRob additional like for the Penny Arcade reference.

[Robinson]

My personal experience does not reflect that. I’ve found that, in general, over time and multiple days, drills, and/or matches, I will shoot a decent single action trigger better than a Glock trigger.

Where the Glock trigger kneecaps you and the 1911 or most other single action triggers help you is when you’re NOT totally on your game. You can get away with a less perfect trigger press and be penalized less for it downrange. If I’m off with a Glock, it’s pretty obvious and the results at 25 yds and beyond speak volumes. If I’m off with a 1911 or a Beretta 92, it’s less obvious and I’m less of a train wreck at 25 yards and beyond.


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That shows how we are all different. Like I said, I like the 1911 trigger and other attributes of the gun but various trigger actions can be trained to a high level. The trigger isn't the only thing in the equation.

And I apologize for contributing to significant thread drift.

[JHC]

My personal experience does not reflect that. I’ve found that, in general, over time and multiple days, drills, and/or matches, I will shoot a decent single action trigger better than a Glock trigger.

Where the Glock trigger kneecaps you and the 1911 or most other single action triggers help you is when you’re NOT totally on your game. You can get away with a less perfect trigger press and be penalized less for it downrange. If I’m off with a Glock, it’s pretty obvious and the results at 25 yds and beyond speak volumes. If I’m off with a 1911 or a Beretta 92, it’s less obvious and I’m less of a train wreck at 25 yards and beyond.


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I've seen that most starkly when I miss the grip a bit in the draw. Usually can still get a close C vs bad C or worse. Gun mass/weight, grip dimensions and trigger I suppose.

[RevolverRob]

Targeting is pretty simple, for immediate incapacitation the only option is CNS:

For Center of Mass and pelvis, there is not a lot there that will cause immediate incapacitation:

Absolutely true.

I borrowed your picture Doc and drew a circle around the area in the pelvis that could cause lethal incapacitation eventually due primarily to exsanguination. I did this so the audience knows where to aim if such a target is the best available. The spot on the average human would be somewhere right at or just below the belly button. Below that spot, you'll probably not hit much that will cause a physiological stop, only a psychological stop.

I wouldn't count on hits in this area to be lethal immediately, either. A hit here with a rifle round or buckshot may prove to be lethal in a matter of a few seconds, it may produce an immediate stop if such projectiles hit and severe the spinal cord. Don't count on that.

A hit with a handgun that went through either the descending branch of the aorta or inferior vena cava or both (the blue veins and red arteries I circled in Doc's image), would likely be lethal, eventually, if immediate medical attention was not provided to stop/control bleeding. By lethal "eventually" it could be 30 seconds, it could be 30 minutes. It will not be immediate (right FUCKING NOW!) stop like a CNS shot, it won't.

If this is your best available target, score your hits and do what you can.

I would love to see LE agencies use this target system for quals as it would lead to much more proficient and effective officers in lethal force encounters, with less risk to the public from missed shots--of course most agencies would have very few officers left on the force if this was the standard.....[/I]

Me too. Would be a great set of quals.

[RJ]

Me too. Would be a great set of quals.

On topic comment - Thank you Doc, great post. I really like that combo of 3x5 and 4x6. I’ll see if I can fit that onto a sheet of office paper, unless anyone knows if it is a copyrighted design?


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[spinmove_]

I've seen that most starkly when I miss the grip a bit in the draw. Usually can still get a close C vs bad C or worse. Gun mass/weight, grip dimensions and trigger I suppose.

Gun weight doesn’t seem to bother me as I shoot my SP2022 pretty well. Grip dimensions and trigger are DEFINITELY key attributes for me. The more comfortable the grip, the less distracting. The smoother the trigger, the less distracting. There are certain qualities that the Glock trigger system has that will always be distracting to me regardless of how smooth it is.

A big annoyance to me, when it comes to Glocks, is how it always seems to have hot spots for my hands regardless of how I hold them. If I grip it square and correctly, the trigger dingus creates a hot spot. If I shift my grip to get just a little more finger on the trigger, the rear left edge of the beavertail creates a hot spot at the base thumb knuckle. In either case, the trigger guard is a hot spot, so an undercut is basically a required mod. Undercut the trigger guard and replace the trigger shoe? Now we’ve got something going. A G19 still feels like it would benefit from a grip hump reduction more than a G17 would.

[HopetonBrown]

Dave Spaulding has a chest cavity target pdf on his website at the very bottom of the front page.

https://handguncombatives.com/

[rcbusmc24]

Right what all these guys said ^^^

For me a "failure to stop" drill is a controlled paid to the upper chest and another controlled pair to the head or pelvis, which ever is exposed and/or easier to hit in the situation.

As BBI notes, the pelvis is often an easier target to hit when a person is moving. This is just a function of our bipedal gait, where we simply cannot turn our pelvises at the angles and speed we can turn our heads. As a result they are more stable even when a person is moving. Watch a jogger, their head bobs up and down a couple of inches with every step, their pelvis does too, but in a more predictable fashion. The "pelvis" is also a fairly large target compared to the ocular window of the skull. In addition to lots of blood vessels, the pelvis also serves as attachment points for all of our major leg muscles and of course it's the largest single target area for a spinal column hit. A good shot to the pelvis can be very incapacitating and/or lethal if rapid medical attention is not provided.

___

RE: "Stopping power and Moros".

Anyone ever held a 1892 Colt Army revolver? I think it was built for a giant. It may have been chambered in .38 LC, but it was built on a frame closer to a New Service in size. If you've never held a New Service it's...big. The double action pulls on the few 1892s I've handled were about 18-pounds of classic Colt trigger stack, which itself is not conducive to good shooting. I can only imagine how bad those 1892s were after some dirt and sand got in there.

I have zero problem believing that the entire increased efficacy of re-issued .45 LC SAAs is due to better its ergonomics and better trigger.

I have a 1892 Colt in my service pistol collection. It is literally one of the last pistols I would pick to gunfight with.... I think a Nagant revolver might actually be slightly better shooting wise. It is pretty though. And due to it's provence worth some money.....

[Den]

I've been shooting and reloading for handguns for 50 years, own about 40 of them, about half in 45acp. That's my go to caliber. The caliber hasn't failed, we just have more inexperienced shooters these days and CPL holders and everyone thinks the 9mm's all the rave. It's a fine cartridge, but nothing holds water to the 45. If you cant get it done with 6 45 cal rounds you're in real trouble.

[jetfire]

I've been shooting and reloading for handguns for 50 years, own about 40 of them, about half in 45acp. That's my go to caliber. The caliber hasn't failed, we just have more inexperienced shooters these days and CPL holders and everyone thinks the 9mm's all the rave. It's a fine cartridge, but nothing holds water to the 45. If you cant get it done with 6 45 cal rounds you're in real trouble.