"Why the .45 ACP Failed"

[JHC]

That photo perfectly illustrates poor shot placement that shouldn’t be expected to immediately stop a determined opponent from fighting.

+1 what a great illustration of the DB point about that large orange to grapefruit sized sweet spot - centerline - that is needed for desired result.

[03RN]

Does anyone here think that they let one prisoner witness POWs executed and burried with pigs go back to his people too?

[0ddl0t]

ON TOP OF THAT...….being that the .45LC SAA was only retired in whole by the US Cavalry. It was still the standard issue weapon for many years with the US Infantry. The Philippine-American War was largely fought by the US National Guard, and I'm not aware of any mystical magical happenings where the .45LCs they were using were magically replaced upon arrival to the Philippines with the M1892. AFAIK, the idea that it was ONLY 1892s being used in country until the SAA was re-issued is a falsehood in its own.

Quoting the book Colt: An American Classic

"The Colt New Service was immensely popular both with the military and civilian markets. Not only was it sold widely in the United States, but foreign military organizations also placed orders. Among the largest buyers was the United States military establishment, and the New Service was adopted formerly by the US Army as the Model 1909. The U.S. Marine Corps and the U.S. Navy also purchased the revolver.

The US military interest in the New Service was prompted by real experience in the battlefield in the Philippines during the insurgencies of the early 20th Century. The New Army and Navy had been sold to the armed forces in the 1890s. Chambered for the .38 Long Colt, the New Army and Navy was found to have underwhelming knockdown capability. Onrushing Filipino insurgents were often shot numerous times but did not fall, compelling American soldiers to engage in hand to hand combat at even greater personal risk.

Reacting quickly to the problem, the Army reconditioned and reissued quantities of the formidable Model 1873 Single Action Army with barrels shortened from 5.5 to 7.5 inches (140 to 190mm). Chambered for the .45 Long Colt cartridge, these proven revolvers served their purpose as a stop gap measure."

It would be interesting to track down the origin of this myth, and it's very likely to be some kind of third hand antidote probably made up out of whole cloth

You can probably blame this guy, General Leonard Wood, for the "myth" by reporting the following in 1904:

"It is thought that the .45 caliber revolver is the one that should be issued to troops throughout the Army…

Instances have repeatedly been reported during the past year where natives have been shot through and through several times with a .38 caliber revolver, and have come on, cutting up the unfortunate individual armed with it…The .45 caliber revolver stops a man on his tracks, usually knocking him down… “

If you are going to dig up the Moros, you also need to look into the failure of the .45 at the Battle of Barrington.

Why does that never get brought up in caliber wars?

The point isn't about finding a single anecdote that proves .45 is some sort of magic death ray. The point is that 120 years ago the US military observed in sustained combat over months and years that the new .38 was quite clearly not as effective as the old .45.

I agree modern high performance ammunition has closed the gap to the point of insignificance. But ball ammo doesn't fit that bill.

[Joe in PNG]

You can probably blame this guy, General Leonard Wood for the "myth" by reporting to following in 1904:

"It is thought that the .45 caliber revolver is the one that should be issued to troops throughout the Army…

Instances have repeatedly been reported during the past year where natives have been shot through and through several times with a .38 caliber revolver, and have come on, cutting up the unfortunate individual armed with it…The .45 caliber revolver stops a man on his tracks, usually knocking him down… “

Well, you have proved that it is a third hand anecdote- "repeatedly been reported". Did he see it himself, or did someone just tell him?

As the saying goes, anecdote =/= data. There's a lot we don't know:
-How many actual shots were made with the .38 vs the .45?
-What kind of shot placement are we looking at?
-Is selection bias at work here- just how scientific is this finding, anyway?

For one, it has been proved that no handgun caliber is actually able to physically knock a man down- the physics just ain't there.
You may get a psychological stop, but actually throwing someone down can't happen unless it also throws the person with the gun back. That's simple action/ reaction.
Having shot a fair amount of .45 acp through a S&W 1917, I can attest that the recoil isn't all that strong.

[RevolverRob]

+1 what a great illustration of the DB point about that large orange to grapefruit sized sweet spot - centerline - that is needed for desired result.

True. Though judging by it’s entrance and exit wound if shot #2 had been made with a load of buckshot I think Antonio would have been adios’ed.

[BehindBlueI's]

You can probably blame this guy, General Leonard Wood, for the "myth" by reporting to following in 1904:

"It is thought that the .45 caliber revolver is the one that should be issued to troops throughout the Army…

Instances have repeatedly been reported during the past year where natives have been shot through and through several times with a .38 caliber revolver, and have come on, cutting up the unfortunate individual armed with it…The .45 caliber revolver stops a man on his tracks, usually knocking him down… “

A bullet that passed through completely did all the damage it's going to do. Simple physics says the energy on the receiving end can't have built after it was launched. Did the revolver knock the shooter over? What's that tell you.

[03RN]

I think Dale Dyes character in Rough Riders is right on

[03RN]

Im pretty sure the 38 they're using didn't penatrate all the way through anything.

[TGS]

"The Colt New Service was immensely popular both with the military and civilian markets. Not only was it sold widely in the United States, but foreign military organizations also placed orders. Among the largest buyers was the United States military establishment, and the New Service was adopted formerly by the US Army as the Model 1909. The U.S. Marine Corps and the U.S. Navy also purchased the revolver.

The US military interest in the New Service was prompted by real experience in the battlefield in the Philippines during the insurgencies of the early 20th Century. The New Army and Navy had been sold to the armed forces in the 1890s. Chambered for the .38 Long Colt, the New Army and Navy was found to have underwhelming knockdown capability. Onrushing Filipino insurgents were often shot numerous times but did not fall, compelling American soldiers to engage in hand to hand combat at even greater personal risk.

Reacting quickly to the problem, the Army reconditioned and reissued quantities of the formidable Model 1873 Single Action Army with barrels shortened from 5.5 to 7.5 inches (140 to 190mm). Chambered for the .45 Long Colt cartridge, these proven revolvers served their purpose as a stop gap measure."

k...…..


…..what's your point?

[JAD]

He’s our only non-shitty mod

least shitty.