"Why the .45 ACP Failed"

[jd950]

Searched the thread for "bone" and these (two above, one below) are the posts that came up as relevant. In a 49-states version of wild animal defense, which seems to be black bears, big cats, wild swine, various oversize reptiles, and the like, due to the likely speed and violence of the attacker, hitting the off switch is crucial. It may be protected by tissue more difficult to penetrate than the pig/human flesh that gel is engineered to simulate. In particular, bear/pig skulls may need to be penetrated. I don't know anything really about gator scales, but I reckon they're a little tougher than human skin. And the impact may be at an oblique angle, given their typical geometry.

In such a context, if we're not going to go all the way to a Lehigh Defense bullet, is there an advantage to having 230 grains of hammer to break things versus 147 or 180? i.e., Would it be worthwhile outside the northern Rockies to choose the USP .45 with 12 rounds of HST +P vs. a 9mm or .40 version of the same gun with 15 @147 or 13 @165/180?

Secondary scenario: You're limited to 10 rounds in all of them. Does the greater rate of repeated tries outweigh any advantage that may exist in breaking bone to get to the switch? What if your shooting at "assessment speed" is roughly equivalent?



Tying to BBI's comment above, I've read about the original design of the 9mm round being a truncated cone that was perceived as being significantly more effective in battle than round-nosed ball. There are three such loads available that I'm aware of.

https://www.targetsportsusa.com/fioc...-p-109334.aspx

https://www.targetsportsusa.com/winc...-p-109471.aspx

https://www.gtdist.com/hornady-9mm-5...ass-135gr.html
(Hornady also has a similarly shaped 220gr .45 Auto load.)

AE 147gr used to be, but it seems no longer is (and may include other undesireable product variation).

All the 147 grain bullets I'm aware of have some degree of flat nose, and some others of various weights, but they all have rounded ogives. And they vary widely in the diameter of the flat meplat and the radius at the edge. I'm not aware of any being bonded.

And I found this FMJ/SWC in .45 Auto that I'd never seen before:
https://www.targetsportsusa.com/fede...5b-p-3818.aspx

If one was going for "barrier" (=heavy bone) penetration in the target without going full solid copper, as well as seeking more tissue disruption than a nice, blimp-shaped FMJ, is some variety of flat nose such as these worth testing?

When I am in the mountains in Colorado and Wyoming (Not grizzly /Brown region) I carry a .40 loaded with 180 grain bonded hollow points. They are available from Winchester and Federal and Speer (as Gold Dots, which may not technically be bonded...not sure). I think this is the best compromise of an appropriate round for potential predatory humans and and also reasonable for the unlikely but possible problem with a bear, mountain lion or rabid whatever. I am fairly sure a bonded 147 gr 9mm or a 230 gr .45 would also be fine, but in this context I think the .40 might be slightly better and besides, I have a .40 gun that I like to use in that setting. I would not take issue with someone choosing something else and am open to being shown I am wrong.

FMJ bullets would surely penetrate better and thus may be desirable for large animals, but I am consistently unimpressed with them in human encounters (yes, even the .45, despite the myths and war stories) and am reluctant to carry FMJ rounds in any situation where a gun may be needed for 2-legged. I suppose a 10mm or a .357 might be better, but I am authorized to carry 9, 40 and 45 and although that doesn't apply when camping in the mountains, I prefer to be using an approved caliber if I can.

[OlongJohnson]

...bonded hollow points. They are available from Winchester and Federal and Speer (as Gold Dots, which may not technically be bonded...not sure).

My understanding is that Gold Dots are electroplated. Can't really get much more "bonded" than that.

[feudist]

We'll still have "is your j-frame enough" and "1911 vs Glock" discussions, too. They are as reliable as small talk about the weather.

Nasty fragmentation we've been having the last few days. How abut up your way?

[Galbraith]

It's vaguely amazing we are still talking 9mm vs .45 on this forum in 2019...

I've been a student of ballistic studies since the late 1990s. Started wearing a uniform in 2000, and have carried several handgun service calibers and used over a half dozen platforms on duty. I carried 9mm for most of that time period in a Sig P226. I'm now a lead instructor for my agency. When we used classic Sigs, I tested the available platforms in 9mm, 40S&W, and .45acp. I found MANY benefits to carrying either .40 or .45 over 9mm such as several vehicle shoot tests(we kept stacking replacement windshields over damaged ones), bouncing rounds off pavement, cross wind tests at 50yrds, Kevlar tests, and house panel tests. At least in the classic DA/SA Sig platform, I found that operator handling for me was better with the P226 9mm so I stuck with that regardless of what my other experiences were. Once we transitioned to the Sig P320 platform, I did more testing. My default decision was to continue with the 9mm, but taking my older ballistic experiences into account along with running drills like F.A.S.T., Bill, White,.....etc I found myself going back to .45acp in the full sized P320. I'm not a sub 5s F.A.S.T. shooter, but I usually keep it under 5.25s clean in .45acp with a level 2 duty holster. With 9mm I'm only about .15s faster which isn't a measurable difference. 50yrd shooting with the P320 .45 was considerably better with duty ammo versus the 9mm equivalent. I was also surprised at my performance with a full sized P320 in .40S&W, and if I were working highway patrol again I would likely transition to back to the .40S&W based on what I observed with the round in several vehicle shoots. The platform made all the difference for me in going back to the heavier caliber. Several coworkers I stay in touch with around the country that have more experience than I have told me that they would likely transition to the larger caliber in a P320 competition long slide setup like the X5 if Sig offered one. However, now days those setups are exclusively 9mm along with the lack of RDS options in anything other than 9mm. These factory options keep them from transitioning from 9mm.

[Tokarev]

I found myself going back to .45acp in the full sized P320.

The P320 45 is an interesting gun. Mine shoots about as well as any 45 I've had, to include some expensive custom builds. Size-wise the 45 variant isn't appreciably larger than the 9/40 frame and it fits in the same duty holster, etc. Overall, a nice option for those who want to carry the 45 in a modern handgun.

[Balisong]

Galbraith-
Can you expand on your findings with the vehicle shoots you referenced in regards to choosing .40 or .45 over 9?

[Baldanders]

Remembering that 147gr wasn't always a thing (designed for SMGs originally, IIRC) the available options were roughly half the weight of common .45 ball. What I've seen on the streets from cheap ball ammo is the lightweight 9mm fragments much easier while the slower, fatter .45 sticks together and retains enough mass to keep on driving through. Even it sheds it's jacket it stays heavy enough to matter.

A decent example was a fellow who irritated a group during a dope buy. He ran out into the passenger seat of his waiting ride, an extended cab pickup, and took off. At least two shooters then lit the back of the truck up. From the crime scene, they were nearly shoulder to shoulder so distances and angles were about the same. Both were using bulk ball ammo, one a 9mm and one a .40. The 9mm hit the rear window, fragmented, and while the fragments were capable of causing injuries, they were shallow and nothing that was debilitating. Basically peppered the backs of the occupants and couldn't get through the seat backs. The .40 shed it's jacket but retained enough mass to get through the head rest and sever the passenger's spine very near the base of the skull. Note a proper bullet for either cartridge would have penetrated further, although obviously the .40 ball was "good enough" in this instance.

I think it's evident at this point that bullet design matters more than caliber, which is why all the common duty calibers are fungible for real world use.

This brings to mind the question "well, if all you shoot is ball and entry-level cup-and-core hollowpoints, does caliber matter more than if you use premium defensive ammunition?" I imagine a good deal of shooters fall into this category.

[willie]

Olong referred to Federal 185 gr swc ammo that he had never seen before. Various manufacturers have produced this round since before WW2. Purpose has always been bullseye target shooting. Bullet mold producers turn out molds for casting it. Federal must be reaching way back to be offering the 185 gr round. Few today are bullseye shooters. I have a case of Winchester's version left over from years past. My guess is that Federal's using the Premium box is a marketing tool to load projectiles made long ago. This way they may be trying to generate income. Older non throated 1911 45 auto's would not reliably feed this ammo.

[That Guy]

Remembering that 147gr wasn't always a thing (designed for SMGs originally, IIRC) the available options were roughly half the weight of common .45 ball. What I've seen on the streets from cheap ball ammo is the lightweight 9mm fragments much easier while the slower, fatter .45 sticks together and retains enough mass to keep on driving through. Even it sheds it's jacket it stays heavy enough to matter.

A decent example was a fellow who irritated a group during a dope buy. He ran out into the passenger seat of his waiting ride, an extended cab pickup, and took off. At least two shooters then lit the back of the truck up. From the crime scene, they were nearly shoulder to shoulder so distances and angles were about the same. Both were using bulk ball ammo, one a 9mm and one a .40. The 9mm hit the rear window, fragmented, and while the fragments were capable of causing injuries, they were shallow and nothing that was debilitating. Basically peppered the backs of the occupants and couldn't get through the seat backs. The .40 shed it's jacket but retained enough mass to get through the head rest and sever the passenger's spine very near the base of the skull. Note a proper bullet for either cartridge would have penetrated further, although obviously the .40 ball was "good enough" in this instance.

I think it's evident at this point that bullet design matters more than caliber, which is why all the common duty calibers are fungible for real world use.

Thank you! This sort of actual real world information is usually lacking in caliber discussions. Glad to see you post this.

[Jeep]

Every large West Coast LE agency that has used good 9 mm 147 gr has had superb terminal effects; remember, if it is appears weird but works, it is not really weird.....

I can see the ads now: "This one weird trick can completely change your self-defense ammo!"