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Thread: "Why the .45 ACP Failed"

  1. #1

    "Why the .45 ACP Failed"

    Dr Bill England wrote this quip in regards to an article in the September 2019 “Blue Press”.


    Getting settled back in at home and the "Blue Press" was waiting for me and I read the article by Duane Thomas. Interested but deeply flawed article. But as always, the purpose is typically to sell stuff, not logically develop a thesis. And telling people what they want to hear is always a good way to sell stuff.

    The crux of his article is in the first paragraph: "Results from the street have shown that there's no real difference in overall stopping performance between the popular service autopistol cartridges. Once we accept that 9mm and .45 work the same, it's awfully hard to justify choosing a more heavily recoiling gun carrying less ammo, when we could be choosing a more lightly recoiling gun with more ammo.

    This article desperately needs footnotes to support his premises. I'm a pretty widely-read guy and have been following the wound ballistics literature for nearly 40 years. That first sentence could have come from a political platform: an appeal to authority and invention of supporting evidence and undefined terms. "Results from the street" needs to be documented. I have not seen a good scientific study supporting this conclusion. I'm sure Marshall and Sanow are good guys, but collecting anecdotes isn't science, nor is asking your experienced street cop buddy what he thinks. "Stopping performance" is similarly elastic like Bill Clinton talking about "investing in America."

    What do we need a bullet to do? We need a bullet to penetrate the target and damage vital structures, leading to rapid incapacitation. If we really need instant incapacitation, we need the bullet to destroy the high spinal cord or penetrate into the brain, but we better be damn fine shots to make this happen. To get the penetration we need relatively heavy for caliber bullets, as ably demonstrated by McPherson. Our probability of damaging those vital structures and rapidly causing exsanguination is improved by increasing the diameter of the penetrating bullet, hence the desire for expansion if it does not overly impede penetration, as the area will increase by the square of the diameter and the rate of exsanguination will be increased by approximately the fourth power.

    Does size really matter? Of course it does. Let's first consider a thought experiment. Let's imagine a target, be it a whitetail deer or a 250# felon trying to kill you with a knife. First consider a handgun firing a sewing needle at sufficient velocity to completely penetrate the target but not expanding. Second, consider a .22 rimfire. Third, consider a 9mm 124gr JHP. Finally, consider a 12-gauge slug. Any knowledgeable shooter would quickly concede that these four projectiles would cause tissue destruction and hemorrhage in increasing proportion to the size of the projectile. However, many seem to think that there is a "magic zone" somewhere in the neighborhood of 9mm to .45 ACP where the slope of this line suddenly becomes zero.

    OK, discount the thought experiment. For a useful scientific study, we cannot simply look at gelatin or just corpses. Doing a prospective study where a couple hundred humans get shot with different cartridges won't pass the institutional review board or get funded by NIH. But there are good retrospective studies that do this. But to be a good study, it needs to avoid selection criteria that influence the results. I was impressed with the recent Braga study in JAMA:

    https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jam...rticle/2688536

    Yes, this was a "Guns are bad and we should ban them study" and clearly the authors don't understand the difference between caliber and cartridge chambering and designations. But the beauty of the study is, they counted everybody that got shot where the cartridge could be identified and they used non-arbitrary end points of "dead" and "alive". And for commonly utilized cartridges like 9mm and .45 ACP, they had a sufficient number of shootings to demonstrate the trend. Smaller calibers were less likely to result in fatal injuries than larger calibers, and this included the 9mm/.45 ACP range.

    No, the results are perfectly linear. For better data, you'll need more than 367 victims. I don't think the 10mm Auto is death ray, even though it was 2/2. And I'm not switching to a .32 ACP even though it was about 50/50. I suspect the pocket pistols were likely pushed against the victim's chest or head when fired.

    So why is the 9mm Parabellum becoming so popular? First, it is not a bad defensive round as the Braga study demonstrates (but don't try and con me that it is just as effective as a .45 ACP). The pistols are generally smaller, lighter, and less expensive. Ammunition is cheaper. It's easier to "qualify" recruits with a 9mm, but don't pretend that this administrative benefit is correlated to effectiveness. It's easier to shoot faster with a 9mm so it is of course more popular in shooting games like IPSC and IDPA.

    A 1911 is an aficionado's pistol, I'll concur. It requires a little more skill, experience, and knowledge to run and maintain this platform than a striker-fired 9mm. Given that, it can certainly reliably feed modern JHP. But most people don't want to be bothered. As the sage opined, "We all have to find our own salvation."

    It is certainly possible to kill a Cape buffalo with a .303 British rifle. But enough people got killed trying this that most African countries have a cartridge minimum starting around the .375 H&H. Yes, it is based on muzzle energy but it really comes down to adequate bullet diameter, construction, and velocity to reliably penetrate and incapacitate Mbogo. And the .375 will do this. But you'll be challenged to find many professional hunters that will claim it works "just as well" as a .458 or .470, given a shooter who can place shots accurately with either rifle.

    The .45 ACP does have more recoil than a 9mm, but not so much that my wife or 13-year-old son could not happily shoot it proficiently and accurately during training and practice. But "training" and "practice" are also in short supply these days. So if you chose to carry a 9mm pistol, please feel free. It is not a bad choice and if you like it and practice with it, that is a good thing.

    Please don't start your argument by claiming it is "just as effective as a .45 ACP." But I figure in another decade, we'll see plenty of articles lauding the mighty .380 ACP and how it is just as effective as a 9mm with modern bullets.

  2. #2
    #RESIST

  3. #3
    Site Supporter 0ddl0t's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tokarev View Post
    But to be a good study, it needs to avoid selection criteria that influence the results.
    The bolded JAMA selection criterion seems problematic to me: "In all cases the victim sustained 1 or more gunshot wounds in circumstances that the Boston Police Department deemed criminal."

    I would not expect the average criminal to load a good duty round - the key assumption implicit in the "all service calibers are good enough" argument.
    Last edited by 0ddl0t; 09-03-2019 at 07:21 AM.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tokarev View Post
    A 1911

    That is what keeps me favorably disposed to the .45.
    “Remember, being healthy is basically just dying as slowly as possible,” Ricky Gervais

  5. #5
    Modding this sack of shit BehindBlueI's's Avatar
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    1) Hole size =/= rate of bleed. The body can swell and cut off blood flow. It's designed to fight wounded but that capacity can obviously be overcome. Different areas of the body have different amounts of pressure behind them and different sizes of blood vessels and different tissue types that respond differently to injury. The body isn't a bucket where a bigger hole leaks faster. The body is more of a hydraulic system wrapped in sponge that can swell or contract.

    2) Bullet selection matters. Most shootings involve shitty ammunition because most shootings are criminal on criminal and criminals *tend* to run shitty ammunition. If I want to know how WWB ball does, I'll consult my files.

    3) Who lives and who dies is a function of two things. Shot placement and time lapse to medical treatment. Some would argue for three with 'will to live' being the third, and that's probably valid for many injuries as well.

    4) My own case files contain hundreds of people shot. I have access to thousands of people shot. My (former) office got roughly 600 people shot a year. I rapidly learned that tracking caliber for purposes other than linking cases was useless. The variables of ammunition used, shot placement, distance to emergency services, etc. vastly overwhelmed any trend for calibers. It also doesn't tell you who's fighting determined attackers and who's engaged in assassination style shootings. Literally nobody carries a .32 for duty use here, but it's used in plenty of dope-rip shootings/assassinations. If you have 50 shootings with a .32 and 50 shootings with the .40, the most common duty round for most of the time I was a detective, is that a valid comparison? Does shooting someone then having immediate medical aid compare to shooting someone and leaving them in a car unreported match up or does that change the data?

    No, a more valid comparison is when entire departments switch. Then you should have the variables controlled. Quality ammunition, same training level so (in theory) same level of good shot placement, same geographic area being policed so same access to medical care, etc. Do you see any statistically relevant change in how many officers win gun fights? The answer is...no, you don't. Or at least we haven't locally and nearly everyone has switched to 9mm except the state police.

    Believe whatever you like. I used to be an arch-bishop in the Holy Church of the .45, carried a 1911 then a Sig P220, and still own more copies of the P220 then any other specific model. However after seeing countless people shot, dead or alive, and a modicum of research I've gotten over it. I will, and have, confront determined and deadly enemies with any of the common duty calibers because they all work and they all work in a measure so equal that the differences aren't even quite angels on pinheads.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tokarev View Post
    [B] But I figure in another decade, we'll see plenty of articles lauding the mighty .380 ACP and how it is just as effective as a 9mm with modern bullets.
    And it might be, but not with the tech we have now. The current .380 cartridges can't "do it all": penetrate, expand, and be barrier blind. It's the smallest commonly used cartridge that can consistently break adult bones, though.
    Last edited by BehindBlueI's; 09-03-2019 at 08:34 AM.
    Sorta around sometimes for some of your shitty mod needs.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by BehindBlueI's View Post
    1) Hole size =/= rate of bleed. The body can swell and cut off blood flow. It's designed to fight wounded but that capacity can obviously be overcome. Different areas of the body have different amounts of pressure behind them and different sizes of blood vessels and different tissue types that respond differently to injury. The body isn't a bucket where a bigger hole leaks faster. The body is more of a hydraulic system wrapped in sponge that can swell or contract.
    Yup, the .45ACP HP hole in my arm didn't bleed that much.
    #RESIST

  7. #7
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    BehindBlueI's hits a home run!
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  8. #8
    You lost me at "Duane Thomas." I had occasion to deal with him once or twice when I worked in the range business. Nice enough guy, working hard to make it in the classic gunwriter mode but not quite cutting the mustard.

    In the mid-90's, there was a video circulating of him "testing" body armor by donning the vest and shooting himself in the chest with a 38 Special +P out of a 4" Smith revolver. For those who came in late, this is not an original stunt--it's a repeat of the demonstration/marketing ploy that Richard Davis once did to show off the effectiveness of Second Chance body armor.

    Except that Duane shot himself TWICE.

    He did this out in the woods on a logging road near Seattle. He took the floor mats out of his car and put them between the vest and his chest to soften the blow. No medical support, no nothing in case things went sideways.

    I haven't taken him seriously since.


    Okie John
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  9. #9
    I think this is always going to be something that people will persist in attempting to prove statistically when there are just way too many variables.

    I always have and always will like 45, and it still gives me good feels, but most often I am shooting and packing 9mm. I think @BehindBlueI's summed it up in a post many months (years?) ago, using the term "agnostic" in this context.
    Last edited by mmc45414; 09-03-2019 at 09:46 AM.

  10. #10
    Member JHC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by okie john View Post

    I haven't taken him seriously since.


    Okie John
    It was only a couple of years ago when he and I had an exchange on his FB page about the relative safety of concealed carry modes/positions. I described the current thinking around the wisdom of "looking in" the re-holster of hot pistol vs blind. He was aghast and suggested this approach was the sign of a rank amateur. It was exit stage left time for me.
    Last edited by JHC; 09-03-2019 at 10:11 AM.
    “Remember, being healthy is basically just dying as slowly as possible,” Ricky Gervais

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