Shotguns vs rifles

[JHC]

Put me in the 5.56 carbine with good ammo camp.

I read a lot online. I talked to my friends who have had to kill people using both. Then I went out and killed some larger animals with both (deer).

I also watched videos of deer hunting and subsequent field dressing (as buckshot is illegal, so I used slug, in my state)

I came to the conclusion that the 5.56 expanding round is just plain more destructive than slug or buckshot. The shotgun is operating at pistol velocity, and produces big pistol type wounds. Only touched tissue is destroyed. It pokes holes. The 5.56 on the other hand turns organs to mush. The lungs are where this phenomenon is most visible with both platforms. A good trauma surgeon might can fix some shotgun stuff. Literally nothing can be done with a souped lung from a 5.56. Deer react the same and run roughly the same from either, I observed in personal as well as filmed 2nd hand experience.

When I started taking deer with various .223 loads (all under 100 yards) I could not believe my eyes when field dressing. "Souped lungs" plus a literally shredded heart in the same doe - yeah, I was incredulous. That was from a 68 grain OTM Black Hills load, broadside at about 15 yards. 60 grain Nosler Partition equally impressive.
I've seen less of that dramatic effect from two of the all copper Barnes loads and one Trophy Bonded Bear Claw although the deer were all down in 15-20 yards (all downhill, every dang time, go figure).

I think it's been mentioned that the latest form of barrier blind loads trade some of that for barrier performance. What have you seen on deer with that class? I've seen nice wound channels that ran long and deep but not the same level of internal explosion.

[TCinVA]

I came to the conclusion that the 5.56 expanding round is just plain more destructive than slug or buckshot. The shotgun is operating at pistol velocity, and produces big pistol type wounds. Only touched tissue is destroyed.

Slugs punch big holes in things no different than a pistol bullet. It's just a big damn hole punched by a 1 ounce projectile that will easily smash large bony structures.

Buckshot as typically used in the woods patterns like dogshit and so a typical hunter puts a couple of pellets dispersed widely on the animal which is a lot like shooting it with a couple of poorly performing 9mm rounds.

Putting a proper pattern of buckshot on the animal is an entirely different phenomenon because all the pellets hitting more or less the same area at the same time produces a dramatically different result.

Here's a video that demonstrates what I'm talking about:



The long range shot of 65 yards hits the animal and it falls, flops, and eventually runs off to bleed out.

The medium range shot at 35 yards drops and does the funky chicken on an incline, enough for gravity to move the animal a few yards.

The close range shot of 13 yards...which is pretty close to realistic self defense distances...anchors the animal instantly. At that distance the pattern was likely no bigger than a fist (probably not much bigger than the bore given the hits he was making at longer ranges) and if you were to dress that animal you'd see that the organs around the impact area had been essentially turned to soup and then the pellets went on to cut individual wound tracks as they spread out.

The physiological design of four-legged creatures means that most shots fired on them do not impact their CNS absent some deliberate targeting. The CNS of the human animal, on the other hand, is right there behind the stuff we're trying to hit to shut down a threat. So if you are given a full frontal profile of a threat and fire a shot into the upper thoracic at typical engagement ranges with a buckshot round that provides a good pattern, it is going to punch through the sternum with ease, pulverize the inelastic tissue in the area, shred the elastic tissue in the area, and after that as the pellets spread through the anatomy at least a couple of them are highly likely to impact the spine and/or very large nerve branches coming out of the spine.

This proves highly effective at stopping whatever action that guy was taking that made you press the trigger on him in the first place.

[Unobtanium]

When I started taking deer with various .223 loads (all under 100 yards) I could not believe my eyes when field dressing. "Souped lungs" plus a literally shredded heart in the same doe - yeah, I was incredulous. That was from a 68 grain OTM Black Hills load, broadside at about 15 yards. 60 grain Nosler Partition equally impressive.
I've seen less of that dramatic effect from two of the all copper Barnes loads and one Trophy Bonded Bear Claw although the deer were all down in 15-20 yards (all downhill, every dang time, go figure).

I think it's been mentioned that the latest form of barrier blind loads trade some of that for barrier performance. What have you seen on deer with that class? I've seen nice wound channels that ran long and deep but not the same level of internal explosion.

Used GMX, gold dot, browntip, ranger bonded...they all soup the near side lung, they damage the heart notably, and the offside lung shows a quarter sized wound channel with at least 1 lobe also being pulped.

[Unobtanium]

Slugs punch big holes in things no different than a pistol bullet. It's just a big damn hole punched by a 1 ounce projectile that will easily smash large bony structures.

Buckshot as typically used in the woods patterns like dogshit and so a typical hunter puts a couple of pellets dispersed widely on the animal which is a lot like shooting it with a couple of poorly performing 9mm rounds.

Putting a proper pattern of buckshot on the animal is an entirely different phenomenon because all the pellets hitting more or less the same area at the same time produces a dramatically different result.

Here's a video that demonstrates what I'm talking about:



The long range shot of 65 yards hits the animal and it falls, flops, and eventually runs off to bleed out.

The medium range shot at 35 yards drops and does the funky chicken on an incline, enough for gravity to move the animal a few yards.

The close range shot of 13 yards...which is pretty close to realistic self defense distances...anchors the animal instantly. At that distance the pattern was likely no bigger than a fist (probably not much bigger than the bore given the hits he was making at longer ranges) and if you were to dress that animal you'd see that the organs around the impact area had been essentially turned to soup and then the pellets went on to cut individual wound tracks as they spread out.

The physiological design of four-legged creatures means that most shots fired on them do not impact their CNS absent some deliberate targeting. The CNS of the human animal, on the other hand, is right there behind the stuff we're trying to hit to shut down a threat. So if you are given a full frontal profile of a threat and fire a shot into the upper thoracic at typical engagement ranges with a buckshot round that provides a good pattern, it is going to punch through the sternum with ease, pulverize the inelastic tissue in the area, shred the elastic tissue in the area, and after that as the pellets spread through the anatomy at least a couple of them are highly likely to impact the spine and/or very large nerve branches coming out of the spine.

This proves highly effective at stopping whatever action that guy was taking that made you press the trigger on him in the first place.

I can agree with this, but I've seen and read of many occassions where this did not occur, and I've also seen it occur with a 9mm, so...bullets do wierd stuff?

[03RN]

Put me in the 5.56 carbine with good ammo camp.

I read a lot online. I talked to my friends who have had to kill people using both. Then I went out and killed some larger animals with both (deer).

I also watched videos of deer hunting and subsequent field dressing (as buckshot is illegal, so I used slug, in my state)

I came to the conclusion that the 5.56 expanding round is just plain more destructive than slug or buckshot. The shotgun is operating at pistol velocity, and produces big pistol type wounds. Only touched tissue is destroyed. It pokes holes. The 5.56 on the other hand turns organs to mush. The lungs are where this phenomenon is most visible with both platforms. A good trauma surgeon might can fix some shotgun stuff. Literally nothing can be done with a souped lung from a 5.56. Deer react the same and run roughly the same from either, I observed in personal as well as filmed 2nd hand experience.

My anecdotal evidence is the polar opposite.

I've only ever seen 855on people I have however used 193, 855, 64gr power points, Barnes bullets, 77hpbt, and a few others on deer. Not a one performs as well as a shotgun.

I've been relatively impressed with 556 overseas and while culling deer but I won't use it for hunting anymore. There are just better options.

A 556 through organs is great but not great at getting to those organs through bad angles. If you're willing to wait and perhaps lose your shot waiting then it'll do fine.

[Unobtanium]

My anecdotal evidence is the polar opposite.

I've only ever seen 855on people I have however used 193, 855, 64gr power points, Barnes bullets, 77hpbt, and a few others on deer. Not a one performs as well as a shotgun.

I've been relatively impressed with 556 overseas and while culling deer but I won't use it for hunting anymore. There are just better options.

A 556 through organs is great but not great at getting to those organs through bad angles. If you're willing to wait and perhaps lose your shot waiting then it'll do fine.

Well, the deer I shoot are around 150#. They don't have an angle that would stop a bullet unless you're trying to shoot them through the arse, which I wouldn't do even with a .308 because of all the crap I'm going to drag through the animal. I've never recovered a 5.56 from a deer. They just through-through them and leave soup in their wake.

That one dropped where it stood for obvious reasons. (path top L to bottom R)


This one ran about 80 yards or so leaking the whole way until it expired, as seen below (path broad-side)

[RevolverRob]

I can agree with this, but I've seen and read of many occassions where this did not occur, and I've also seen it occur with a 9mm, so...bullets do wierd stuff?

Of course, bullets do weird stuff, pretty much regardless of caliber or type. And humans, like deer, are not really "normal" (though from the wild animals I've cut up vs. the humans, I'd say the animals are more normal and humans tend towards abnormal).

Regardless, more than one of our SMEs/Mods who have/had careers in .MIL or LE (or both) have shot people with shotguns loaded with buckshot or slugs. Those same guys, if given their druthers generally pick up a shotgun if they think they are going to go shoot bad people. I've met guys who spent their whole professional careers shooting people and at people with AR/AK-pattern rifles and they often will tell you they pick the rifle because of familiarity not necessarily because of ballistic superiority. That's often what I consider a clue. People who have shot other people tell me, "Hey, if I'm going to a gunfight, I'm gonna take the gun I shoot best that is also the biggest caliber I can handle."

Still, as we've seen with gel and in the real world caliber counts for some but accuracy is the final determinant in efficacy.

[JHC]

My anecdotal evidence is the polar opposite.

I've only ever seen 855on people I have however used 193, 855, 64gr power points, Barnes bullets, 77hpbt, and a few others on deer. Not a one performs as well as a shotgun.

I've been relatively impressed with 556 overseas and while culling deer but I won't use it for hunting anymore. There are just better options.

A 556 through organs is great but not great at getting to those organs through bad angles. If you're willing to wait and perhaps lose your shot waiting then it'll do fine.

Very interesting. Yeah all my deer kills with it were broadside to the lungs, head on through the throat into the chest or through upper neck. Organ and vessels. Definitely right about the angles hunting; I've let deer walk because that perfect shot, like bow hunting was not there. I've treated deer hunting with it as I would if I was bow hunting.


From a sample of one Win 64 gr PP and one buck - that was the least impressive load I've seen. It is not one of the rounds I extoll. It entered the side of the neck at just under 100 yards, dropped the deer in it's tracks but I had to end it's thrashing when I got to it with the pistol. The exit wound was just a couple inches from the entrance wound on the same side of the neck. The mangled copper jacket was hanging in the exit wound. No lead core found. The buck's neck was not dramatically broken but obviously enough stunning/shock from it being hit to drop the deer.

[Unobtanium]

Of course, bullets do weird stuff, pretty much regardless of caliber or type. And humans, like deer, are not really "normal" (though from the wild animals I've cut up vs. the humans, I'd say the animals are more normal and humans tend towards abnormal).

Regardless, more than one of our SMEs/Mods who have/had careers in .MIL or LE (or both) have shot people with shotguns loaded with buckshot or slugs. Those same guys, if given their druthers generally pick up a shotgun if they think they are going to go shoot bad people. I've met guys who spent their whole professional careers shooting people and at people with AR/AK-pattern rifles and they often will tell you they pick the rifle because of familiarity not necessarily because of ballistic superiority. That's often what I consider a clue. People who have shot other people tell me, "Hey, if I'm going to a gunfight, I'm gonna take the gun I shoot best that is also the biggest caliber I can handle."

Still, as we've seen with gel and in the real world caliber counts for some but accuracy is the final determinant in efficacy.

And I know others who would pick the M4 carbine for across the room fun, but ultimately, that is an emotional statement, and anecdotal. When looking at the data, the 5.56 negates soft body armor, and gives 30 shots vs. a typical maximum of 7-9 shots. That is pretty "hard" data.

What the debate seems to be, is over terminal effect. I have shot game with both, and noted no difference in animal reaction (they run 50-100 yards, regardless, unless spine is involved). Still, that, too, is anecdotal and very low sample size.

This is EXACTLY what I see with my 5.56, or with my 12ga.



The only difference is when I field dress the shotgun hit deer, I see a clean hole through vitals. The 5.56 shot deer? Soup. Gimme the soup, negate soft armor, and the 30 tries, please!

I feel like the shotgun is full of mystique much like the .45 ACP. Both will do ya! But their effects are much exaggerated in my personal experience, and in every account like the above video I can find, which mirrors my own experience.

[Unobtanium]

Very interesting. Yeah all my deer kills with it were broadside to the lungs, head on through the throat into the chest or through upper neck. Organ and vessels. Definitely right about the angles hunting; I've let deer walk because that perfect shot, like bow hunting was not there. I've treated deer hunting with it as I would if I was bow hunting.


From a sample of one Win 64 gr PP and one buck - that was the least impressive load I've seen. It is not one of the rounds I extoll. It entered the side of the neck at just under 100 yards, dropped the deer in it's tracks but I had to end it's thrashing when I got to it with the pistol. The exit wound was just a couple inches from the entrance wound on the same side of the neck. The mangled copper jacket was hanging in the exit wound. No lead core found. The buck's neck was not dramatically broken but obviously enough stunning/shock from it being hit to drop the deer.

That's horrible performance, and I will be the first to agree that 5.56 is greatly dependant upon using a quality projectile. This year, I will be using Browntip. Past years I have used, with great success:

-75gr Gold Dot
-RA556B
-70gr GMX (variable...won't be using that anymore. Had a failure to expand at 125m, the ones that DID expand were excellent, however.)