Shotguns vs rifles

[BehindBlueI's]

@BehindBlueI's if I'm understanding you correctly, it seem people encounter the same failures regardless of the type of weapon?

Essentially, yes. At least depending on the semantics and how far you break things down. If you title the reason for failure as "failing to discharge the gun when required" then it's same-same. If you want to divide that into "disarmed" vs "mechanically inoperative gun due to not deactivating safeties" then it starts to change percentages. I don't know why, but shotgun manual safeties seem easier for people to remember to use, or are simply more ergonomic and get deactivated when the user means to, compared to handguns. Similarly, handguns don't get taken from the wielder very often. If that's a function of them being easier to retain or a function of how people are approaching their use (remember it seemed more handgunners remained stationary and waited for their target to approach them) I can't say. I can speculate, of course, but can't say for certain.

Regardless of weapon type, those who acted from ambush and used what I term "speed, surprise, and ferocity of attack" almost always won. It's the #1 predictor of who will win, more than weapon type, more than number of defenders vs attackers, more than which side had the "better" weapons, etc.

Those who postured and threatened but failed to act didn't fare as well. Those who gave away their position and/or got entangled didn't fare as well. Those who presented non-functioning firearms didn't fare as well. Particularly those who were subsequently outnumbered.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

It's not apples to apples but it seems, (as has been mentioned), that the length and weight of a shotgun can be a hindrance in some hands...which may contribute to issues, especially if the bearer goes hunting rather than fighting from concealment.

There's a reason why clearing the home, (absent exigency and necessity), is not the most recommended action during an "event".

Reminds of a class at Karl Rehn's. You were in the bed room with a 'shotgun'. You hear bad people stealing your TV. The bad people were Karl's staff. The folks who stayed put in the bedroom carried the day. The newish folks who went out to see or save the TV, ended up on their behind.

As far as the question, for me it's handgun with rifle as backup. Not exploring, except in emergency circumstances.

[deputyG23]

I own two ARs but have a lot more trigger time with the 870P since I was responsible for teaching the shotgun to jailor recruits years ago. If I kept a long gun out for indoor or yard defense (I live in suburbia) it would probably be my '60s Winchester 1200 "Riot" gun loaded with FC OO buck.

[RevolverRob]

So the moral of the story is regardless of shotgun, rifle, handgun, or golf club making them come to you, springing an ambush, and using overwhelming violence and speed of action wins. It's almost like that is a principle of combat somewhere hmm...

Robert Rogers' Standing Order for Rangers number 19:

Let the enemy come till he's almost close enough to touch. Then let him have it and jump out and finish him with your hatchet.

[Guerrero]

So the moral of the story is regardless of shotgun, rifle, handgun, or golf club making them come to you, springing an ambush, and using overwhelming violence and speed of action wins. It's almost like that is a principle of combat somewhere hmm...

And that we all need some training.

[Ed L]

FWIW, every single person in my case files who lost a home defense with a shotgun got physically engaged with an attacker. One guy just wouldn't pull the trigger, bad guy eventually caught on and disarmed him. Another charged down the hallway port arms smack into a bad guy and ended up losing his gun in a tug of war after it was discharged harmlessly into dry wall and the second bad guy came around the corner with a handgun. Another was furiously working on removing a trigger lock when discovered by the intruders.

The same is true of ARs, although honestly AR users have tended to be more dedicated and/or trained defenders. While my bucket of AR defenses is much smaller than shotgun defenses, nobody has been disarmed.

I don't have the spreadsheet on this computer so forgive the lack of exact numbers, but pretty similar outcomes. Failing to discharge it lead to losses, but usually failure to defeat a thumb safety over having it taken from them. I don't recall any losses where a handgun was discharged from a distance (as opposed to an entangled fight over it), but I'll double check.

Anecdotally, those with handguns tended to stay put and wait vs charging in. Note that's been a recipe for success regardless of weapon, and even non-firearm defenses have a very high success percentage when sprung from ambush. One memorable example was applying rapid dental work to an intruder by smashing his face in with a golf driver as he topped the stairs. There were teeth scattered along the stairs. It looked like it probably stung.

Thanks, BB. There was someone or other who claimed that they were looking for instances where an armed defender failed against a criminal and could not find any. These types of things are not likely to make local newspapers.

[BehindBlueI's]

Thanks, BB. There was someone or other who claimed that they were looking for instances where an armed defender failed against a criminal and could not find any. These types of things are not likely to make local newspapers.

I'd refer them to Massad Ayoob's last book. There's instances of failure in there.

I have multiple failures in my case files, but even when they do make the news there often is no mention the victim was armed. I just looked up a 2016 case where I know for sure the victim was armed but was entangled and couldn't fire a shot. He was then killed. No mention of that in the media accounts.

[Ed L]

I'd refer them to Massad Ayoob's last book. There's instances of failure in there.

Thanks. Is the book that you are referring to "Straight Talk on Armed Defense"? I could swear I have it somewhere, but can't find it at the moment.

[BehindBlueI's]

Thanks. Is the book that you are referring to "Straight Talk on Armed Defense"? I could swear I have it somewhere, but can't find it at the moment.

That's the one.

[HCM]

Thanks, BB. There was someone or other who claimed that they were looking for instances where an armed defender failed against a criminal and could not find any. These types of things are not likely to make local newspapers.

Claude Werner has many examples in his “negative outcomes” files.

William April has some examples too.