Shotguns vs rifles

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Do the hostage drill much? Also, thanks for the science. Having a 2 year post doc in visual neuroscience, my learned opinion is that I don't want the wad in my eye.

Also, as a psychologist - a wife having a superficial laceration and wearing a patch for a few days (even after saving her from a fate worse than death), would lead to a fairly constant stream of WHY DIDN'T YOU USE A RIFLE, YOU .... fill in the rest .... You have to have a PhD in Psychology to understand this part.

Virtual luck. What are the odds of someone shooting a rifle a few berms away, the round hitting a rock and coming over said set of berms in a trajectory that whacks a guy square in the head? Saw that one.

Now, please explain the virtual luck, it won't really hurt your eye (much), I've always wanted to make love to someone who looks like a pirate - to your partner and get their opinion of whether they want to be looking the barrel of rifle, shotgun or handgun for the hostage shot.

You might have to patch up your relationship after that. The term 'blown' probably won't be heard in another context for quite awhile.

[Hambo]

If I'm a hostage, do me a favor and hold your fire with whatever weapon you have. It's not my eyeball I'm worried about, it's somebody who thinks they can make on demand head shots past a hostage.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

This is an old debate. It revolves around whether the peril to the hostage is dire enough that action might have to be taken. That might be for a different thread. Certainly, no one wants to do that. So is it worth practicing the different proposed methods?

[03RN]

If I'm a hostage, do me a favor and hold your fire with whatever weapon you have. It's not my eyeball I'm worried about, it's somebody who thinks they can make on demand head shots past a hostage.

Sorry, but I don't take advice from nobody's online.

I have current, up to date, training footage to train with. I'll take SME SWAT cops over you any day.

[TCinVA]

Realistically a hostage shot is an extremely close range proposition...as in 5 yards or less. If you are using flight control the wad will still be with the payload at that distance. Even with very crappy buckshot the wad ends up near the concentration of the payload.



This shooting was with Federal Flight Control buckshot. The wad stayed with the shot column into the hostage taker's head. It stayed inside what was left of his head.

Entangled shooting is generally happening at very close ranges.

As to what the wad will do, it is certainly possible that a wad strike directly to the eye is going to cause significant damage to the eye. It's also possible that the grex used in most good quality buckshot could cause problems. Crucially, however, the reason why the shot is being made is because the danger of a far worse injury is imminent.



The shooting in the video above went very, very poorly...making CNS hits with a pistol even at very close range is more difficult than most anticipate, especially for the typically under-trained police officer...but the trigger for the officers to start firing was the suspect actually beginning to cut the hostage's throat.

Had the officer with the best shooting position been armed with a shotgun that had flight control loaded in it, he could have made the same shot seen in the first video and instantly neutralized the threat.

At the kinds of ranges where non-sniper hostage shots are taken, the shotgun doesn't have a significant mechanical offset to deal with...which is useful.

[txdpd]

The shooting in the video above went very, very poorly...making CNS hits with a pistol even at very close range is more difficult than most anticipate, especially for the typically under-trained police officer...but the trigger for the officers to start firing was the suspect actually beginning to cut the hostage's throat.

I won’t disagree that it went poorly, but it’s a fairly typical outcome. A hostage taker isn’t giving anyone time to line up a perfect headshot, and the hostage becomes a bullet sponge.

The shotgun headshot is a great example of the OODA loop. The officer out maneuvers the suspect and forces him to turn to react to the officer, the hostage’s feet stay put and she starts to fall. That’s an unobstructed headshot on the suspect. It’s too close for comfort, but there’s a ton of space to work with.

Be very aggressive and do something (with understanding that it’s absolute failure or victory) , or back off immediately.

[HCM]

If I'm a hostage, do me a favor and hold your fire with whatever weapon you have. It's not my eyeball I'm worried about, it's somebody who thinks they can make on demand head shots past a hostage.

[GJM]

What would cause that woman, who was later taken hostage, to stay there with all that happening?

[RevolverRob]

What would cause that woman, who was later taken hostage, to stay there with all that happening?

I believe she is/was elderly and using a walker.

[TCinVA]

Right. Impaired mobility is one good explanation.

Pair that with the tendency of human beings to play looky-loo at a dangerous situation long enough that they get sucked into it, etc.