Originally Posted by HCM
I don't even own a complete psa. I brought them up as a comparison to mossberg and Remington, who make products of higher cost, and lesser quality
I don't even own a complete psa. I brought them up as a comparison to mossberg and Remington, who make products of higher cost, and lesser quality
I have, sitting in the safe, a $125 shotgun that can be carried anywhere in the U.S. It's an H&R Topper 12-gauge, with the barrel cut to 19", fitted with a fiber-optic front sight, a butt-cuff, and a slip-on recoil pad (mostly to get the LOP right for me). I built as a general concept of building a 50-state legal firearm. It keeps all 8-pellets of Hornady Crit Defense buckshot (basically just full power Federal FC) on a USPSA target out to 30-yards. It keeps Federal Tru-Ball slugs in the A-Zone of a USPSA target out to 50-yards. I break it down and stick it in my duffel bag when I take a road trip.
Is a single shot ideal? Absolutely not. But if you follow the advice in this very thread. Hunker down, ambush your attacker. You can make it work. It shoots "minute of front door" from across the room without an issue. If you get hit in the chest with a load of buckshot it doesn't matter if it's from a $125 H&R Topper or a $1250 Benelli or a $12,500 custom Beretta - it all hurts the same.
It's true that combat-grade semi-auto shotguns tend to run at the higher end cost wise. Cheaper semi-auto shotguns are built for the bird and games crowd who will accept less reliability.
That said, I just spent 45 seconds looking on Gunbroker. I found half a dozen M1 Super 90s for less than 800 bucks, several starting at around 675. and a Beretta 1201FP (basically just a Beretta marked M1 Super 90) Buy it Now for 600 bucks. Either of those would be vastly superior to any $600 AR that isn't a Colt.
___
Anyways, this thread has drifted all over the place. Let's drive back to the topic - A shotgun or rifle works fine for defense use. Whichever you choose, know the nuances of it.
If you pick a shotgun: Know you have limited range with buckshot and still limited range with slugs. You need to know and at least practice with some regularity slug-select drills, if you think the gun will be used across any distance. Shotguns need to be kept fed constantly. You gotta practice doing that or it's more or less useless to you if the fight goes longer than whatever ammo is in the gun. Like all long-guns, shotguns need slings. Advantage of the shotgun is close range power.
If you pick a rifle, in particular an AR15: Know that at close range, sight offset is real. You will shoot low, if you don't learn and practice compensating for sight offset. You need to practice regularly your reloading drills and of course at difference distances to practice your offsets. Like all long-guns, ARs need slings. You gain ammunition capacity and increased range in a trade off for outright power up close.
All 3 of my complete ar's. The pistol is the cheapest, and has a psa lower, and its a range toy
The bottom one, the "cheapest" part is probably the primary arms tape switch, and a similar build minus the optic would cost maybe about 950 or so.
Point is i know how much AR's cost, and I'm not running around with a shit box
Old 870s and Mossy 500s are inexpensive and work well. I have thousands of rounds through my $300 police surplus Wingmaster and it has never given me trouble.
Semi autos, different story.
My response for folks right now who want a pump gun is a police surp 870. Which you can still find out there.
My default would be a Benelli Nova or Supernova if you could get a fucking stock that was short enough to fit most people that wasn't a pistol-grip stock. Since Benelli seems to think everyone is 8-feet tall...it's a bit irritating.
This seems like a job a for @SpyderMan2k4 - It's probably not worth the effort to make an adapter to put a Magpul SGA on a Nova though...
I’d buy one. The stock is the biggest issue I have with the NOVA.
As to pricing...
I recently bought a couple of completed BCM lowers. Duty grade stuff, I think we'd all agree. $350 a piece.
One will be mated to a Colt CCU upper I got from Brownells on sale. $519. Of course, that comes without a bolt carrier group or charging handle.
Purchased a Geissele CH on sale for $71
Purchased a good mil-spec BCG, $129.
That's more than $1,000...and I don't even have sights or an optic on it yet.
Buds' current price on a basic 6920 is $950. As I've been paying very close attention to used AR prices for the last couple of months, I can tell you I haven't seen a 6920 or better spec gun go for less than $750 in auctions. And that's just the gun.
A 1301 Tactical is listed on Buds for $1,198.
It's on par with what you would pay for a quality AR...but it's pretty well GTG right from the box. It's tough to find someone running around using a 6920 as it came out of the box.
In terms of cost, it's a wash between the best semi-auto gauges and the duty grade ARs.
3/15/2016
I shortened my Nova stock up 1" with a hacksaw, Dremel sanding drum and some epoxy.
Took me about 30 minutes.
"For a moment he felt good about this. A moment or two later he felt bad about feeling good about it. Then he felt good about feeling bad about feeling good about it and, satisfied, drove on into the night."
-- Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy --
I've noticed a few good things have been brought up in making a decision between these two general types of long guns for home defense.
1) what your plan is, i.e. bunkering down or clearing the property depending on layout, distances, and family members
2) training is pretty important
3) cost of weapon and accessories.
I'd appreciate reading more discussion about the cost and availability of training and practice, which seems to me the next thing that should be brought up from items number 2 and number 3.
Rifle training, as it extends to AR/AK styles, appears to be the most popular training taken by students if I remember reading correctly in 'Strategies and Standards for Defensive Handgun Use'. I did read a thread a few months ago here talking about a possible decrease in demand for carbine class demand in the training industry, but finding quality instruction is probably not an issue. The only class I have taken is a one-day carbine from Ian Strimbeck, who was mentioned in that same thread. It was combined with a one-day pistol for $400. I will see him again next year, but my AR is not for home defense. I'm sitting on a couple cases which is enough for the next class and to confirm zero and offsets beforehand, so as a result I don't really have a good idea of how much ammunition a regular student goes through on a monthly basis.
Shotgun training, for me, has been harder to come by. I'll be seeing Mr. Haught and Son later this fall, but outside of that, the only options that I was aware of were classes at my local ranges (Scottsdale Gun Club/C2 Tactical), and a Practical Shotgun through Glen Stilson at Independence Training ($225). SGC used to have a 'defensive' shotgun before a lack of attendance led to the instructors changing it to a 'basic' class. I took both at <$100 each, noting that the basic class focused more on patterning loads. The listed round count was the same as before, but in reality we fired less than a third. C2 Tactical has a progression of classes all with higher round counts, but I have yet to take any of them due to a lack of transparency with their instructor backgrounds combined with hearing very mixed opinions from others who have attended. This may change in the future since they did hire a new director of training not that long ago. I do buy 7-10 boxes of 00 Flite Control a year at local retail price, but that is divided over two purchases a year and is negligible compared to what I spend on 9mm.
The shotgun is my chosen home defense weapon, but the overwhelming majority of my training and practice has been on handguns. In light of that, I do stay concealed around the house and keep a pistol within arm's reach if I am not dressed. Ammunition costs run a case and a half a month, not including what is needed for classes. I don't want to talk about how much I've spent on tuition for pistol training. Please buy my revolver in the For Sale or Trade section; I need to pay for more pistol training.
Another consideration from looking at items number 1 and number 2 is the question of proficiency with other members of the family, presuming that they do not have their own designated weapon i.e. in farscott's case. Ergonomics may play a bigger role here with different body compositions. I remember reading on Greg Ellifritz's? or Mark Luell's blog? about why they selected a pistol-caliber carbine, I think a Beretta CX4, and that was one of the reasons.
Last edited by Yung; 09-07-2019 at 03:12 PM.
I think 3) is pretty much meaningless. As an example, a good pistol can be had for $600, including night sights. A good holster and belt can be had for another $100. If one fires just fifty rounds per week (call it 2500 rounds a year with two "vacations"), a year's ammo cost is pretty much half the cost of the pistol even shooting TulAmmo as a 1000-round case costs $140. So 2500 rounds would cost about $350. And that "shooting" cost does not includes cleaning supplies, targets, range fees, etc. So I look as firearms as inexpensive and shooting firearms as expensive.
As for 2), yes, training is important. No argument there. I would add that not all training needs to be in formal classes. For me, a round of skeet with my HD shotgun, while looking a bit gauche, keeps my shotgun skills polished. I have "range" versions of my HD guns that function the same. Just running the gun helps. Patterning the gun is invaluable, and I usual pattern mine when I get a new case of ammo. Even the "same" ammo from a different lot can pattern a bit differently from the same shotgun, and I like to know where the gun shoots with that lot of ammo.
1) has so many variables and changes throughout the course of a life. At one time, getting to my daughter's room from our master suite required going through the family room. in the house before that one, both bedrooms were on the second floor and the only staircase to the floor was closer to the master suite. When my daughter was in high school, she starting shooting. Now we are empty nesters, so we only need defend the master suite. All of those impact(ed) how we plan(ned) to handle intruders. And that is just one variable. We went from a core metro suburb to a rural location and that changed planning. My wife discovered ARs, and that changed the plan. Plans are subject to change and to improvement.
Reply With Quote