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Thread: Shotguns vs rifles

  1. #121
    Perpetually Tired RevolverRob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aray View Post
    The idea that one round of 5.56 of any design is as capable (or more so?) as 1 oz of buckshot at stopping a 150-200 pound critter/threat at interior room distances is absolutely absurd.
    Physics doesn't matter when we have super projectiles! Super projectiles, I might note, that expand to ~.50" in diameter. Where as our 12-gauge friends start out at .70-.73" in diameter and usually get bigger (i.e., spreading buckshot or expanding slug).

    Actually, semantic argument, there is a place where a 5.56 might be superior to buckshot or slugs at room distances - in places where soft body armor might be in play. But beyond that, I can't think of instances where I'd prefer a 5.56 to a 12-gauge load at across-the-room distance.
    "P-f: I lurked for wonderful combat pistolcraft advice, but I ponied up cash for my daily dose of Dada." - Baldanders

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  2. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by RevolverRob View Post
    Physics doesn't matter when we have super projectiles! Super projectiles, I might note, that expand to ~.50" in diameter. Where as our 12-gauge friends start out at .70-.73" in diameter and usually get bigger (i.e., spreading buckshot or expanding slug).

    Actually, semantic argument, there is a place where a 5.56 might be superior to buckshot or slugs at room distances - in places where soft body armor might be in play. But beyond that, I can't think of instances where I'd prefer a 5.56 to a 12-gauge load at across-the-room distance.
    Keep in mind that TSC is a very viable wounding/permanent tissue destruction mechanism at 2700fps, much moreso than at 1300fps...otherwise we'd all be using PCCs.

    Anyway, this sounds like a great excuse to hunt some deer and post some photos.
    Last edited by Unobtanium; 09-20-2019 at 03:10 AM.

  3. #123
    Member GearFondler's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RevolverRob View Post

    Actually, semantic argument, there is a place where a 5.56 might be superior to buckshot or slugs at room distances - in places where soft body armor might be in play. But beyond that, I can't think of instances where I'd prefer a 5.56 to a 12-gauge load at across-the-room distance.
    A slug will break a 2x4 through soft body armor so I don't imagine a center mass hit will leave an assailant in very good condition... And then there's the head shot with buck shot, avoiding any possible doubts.

  4. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by GearFondler View Post
    A slug will break a 2x4 through soft body armor so I don't imagine a center mass hit will leave an assailant in very good condition... And then there's the head shot with buck shot, avoiding any possible doubts.
    I remember years ago reading about an officer hit with one (this forum or another, someone known to be an officer or vetted posted the story as I recall.). He still killed the perp. But yeah, he was hurt pretty badly.

  5. #125
    Quote Originally Posted by GearFondler View Post
    A slug will break a 2x4 through soft body armor so I don't imagine a center mass hit will leave an assailant in very good condition... And then there's the head shot with buck shot, avoiding any possible doubts.
    There is no doubt in my mind a slug on soft armor would mess up your day. I've shot slugs at expired vests wrapped around old tires. The tires flex, but didn't 'fly away' or move too much.

    Regarding your broken 2x4 - was it free swinging or solidly mounted to something? Remember the torso is somewhat elastic, and the body itself will move in response to the kinetic energy being converted as the vest fibers pull.

  6. #126
    Member GearFondler's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Lehr View Post
    There is no doubt in my mind a slug on soft armor would mess up your day. I've shot slugs at expired vests wrapped around old tires. The tires flex, but didn't 'fly away' or move too much.

    Regarding your broken 2x4 - was it free swinging or solidly mounted to something? Remember the torso is somewhat elastic, and the body itself will move in response to the kinetic energy being converted as the vest fibers pull.
    I haven't tested it myself but it was a 2x4 stand holding the vest, so not free swinging nor solidly mounted but rather in between.
    It's definitely not a scenario I would want to bet a stop on... I can imagine anything from a fight-ending cracked sternum to a deep bruise mostly ignored by a determined assailant.
    I'd rather skip the Slug in this scenario and go with buckshot in the pumpkin.

  7. #127
    Quote Originally Posted by GearFondler View Post
    I haven't tested it myself but it was a 2x4 stand holding the vest, so not free swinging nor solidly mounted but rather in between.
    It's definitely not a scenario I would want to bet a stop on... I can imagine anything from a fight-ending cracked sternum to a deep bruise mostly ignored by a determined assailant.
    I'd rather skip the Slug in this scenario and go with buckshot in the pumpkin.
    I've spent a lot of time training folks with Federal 13200. Seen a whole bunch of flight control wads bounce of metal or tear through cardboard.

    After some thought about the matter, I switched to Brenneke THD slugs in 12 and 20 for the shotguns loaded out for HD.

    As much as range/tactical training can prepare you, I'm prepared to take a 5 to 7 yard over the hostage's shoulder head shot, the FC13200 will do it, but the flipping wad worries me......

  8. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Lehr View Post
    I've spent a lot of time training folks with Federal 13200. Seen a whole bunch of flight control wads bounce of metal or tear through cardboard.

    After some thought about the matter, I switched to Brenneke THD slugs in 12 and 20 for the shotguns loaded out for HD.

    As much as range/tactical training can prepare you, I'm prepared to take a 5 to 7 yard over the hostage's shoulder head shot, the FC13200 will do it, but the flipping wad worries me......
    As well it should. Liability. Headshots usually work with most calibers, although pistol often enough doesnt kill people very fast IME, it DOES drop them.

  9. #129
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    I tend to agree with the OP's sentiment...a shotgun is a very effective close-in weapon. I keep my Beretta 1301 at the ready with nine shells loaded for this very purpose.

  10. #130
    Perpetually Tired RevolverRob's Avatar
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    Cardboard \= skin

    Human flesh is more elastic and resists tearing much than a fiberous material.

    The danger of wads is wholly overstated. The reason wads bounce off of targets is they lack the mass necessary to penetrate. Even a shot with a wad at close range would likely not penetrate deeply enough to cause a fatal injury.
    "P-f: I lurked for wonderful combat pistolcraft advice, but I ponied up cash for my daily dose of Dada." - Baldanders

    Do not be a fool; the Oxford comma is always necessary.

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