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Thread: Shotguns vs rifles

  1. #171
    Murder Machine, Harmless Fuzzball TCinVA's Avatar
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    Above is from a client's Langdon Package Beretta 1301 using 9 pellet Federal Flight Control part way through our patterning exercise in class last Saturday. You can see the 9th pellet flyer is visible off by itself at about 2:00 on the bullseye. 9 pellet buckshot tends to have a flyer because of the way the pellets are arranged in the shell. Even Federal Flight Control 9 pellet tends to throw a flyer. The difference is that the FFC flyer isn't as severe and tends to fly predictably.

    Unfortunately that 1301 isn't his duty weapon, but now he has a solid example of how to do the same workup on his duty weapon with his duty ammo so he knows what that shotgun he was issued is really capable of.
    @Aray and I are both HUGE on accountability for the projectiles we fire out of a weapon. Tom Givens is as well. Our primary concern for the types of patterns we encourage in class is to ensure that people who train with us know exactly where their pellets are going. The people we are training are primarily citizens and police officers working within the legal framework of the United States where we face a significant moral and legal impetus to make sure our projectiles only end up hitting people who are doing something bad enough to earn a gunshot wound.

    That is our primary focus.

    It so happens that in achieving that we also get the maximum terminal ballistic power available from a shotgun.
    3/15/2016

  2. #172
    Perpetually Tired RevolverRob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TCinVA View Post

    Above is from a client's Langdon Package Beretta 1301 using 9 pellet Federal Flight Control part way through our patterning exercise in class last Saturday. You can see the 9th pellet flyer is visible off by itself at about 2:00 on the bullseye. 9 pellet buckshot tends to have a flyer because of the way the pellets are arranged in the shell. Even Federal Flight Control 9 pellet tends to throw a flyer. The difference is that the FFC flyer isn't as severe and tends to fly predictably.
    Do you happen to know the range on this pattern and low recoil or full power FC?

    I've shied away from the 9-pellet FC due to the flier at longer distances, but that pattern would give me more confidence in the load. This is one of the reasons I've opted for Hornady Crit Defense, is the ability to get a full-power 8-pellet load that patterns well. But the 1600 fps the Hornady load is at is too much (almost 3" mag level). I'd much prefer something in the 1325 range, like the LE127 00 load.

    I know, 1145 is terminally effective...except I like 1325 or more. With push-pull I only notice a recoil difference when I've fired 50 rounds of buck in a day (which isn't very often). It's silly, but I haven't been convinced to give up the extra velocity for comfort (yet, maybe someday).
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  3. #173
    Murder Machine, Harmless Fuzzball TCinVA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RevolverRob View Post
    Do you happen to know the range on this pattern and low recoil or full power FC?
    Low recoil FFC 9 pellet. Range is 15 yards. At 25 he was still well within the A zone with the bulk of the pattern, C zone with the flyer.
    Last edited by TCinVA; 10-01-2019 at 11:35 AM.
    3/15/2016

  4. #174
    Member 03RN's Avatar
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    25 yards with my shockwave
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    50 yards
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  5. #175
    Site Supporter MattF.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TCinVA View Post
    Name:  1301pattern.jpg
Views: 397
Size:  53.1 KB

    Above is from a client's Langdon Package Beretta 1301 using 9 pellet Federal Flight Control part way through our patterning exercise in class last Saturday. You can see the 9th pellet flyer is visible off by itself at about 2:00 on the bullseye. 9 pellet buckshot tends to have a flyer because of the way the pellets are arranged in the shell. Even Federal Flight Control 9 pellet tends to throw a flyer. The difference is that the FFC flyer isn't as severe and tends to fly predictably.

    Unfortunately that 1301 isn't his duty weapon, but now he has a solid example of how to do the same workup on his duty weapon with his duty ammo so he knows what that shotgun he was issued is really capable of.
    @Aray and I are both HUGE on accountability for the projectiles we fire out of a weapon. Tom Givens is as well. Our primary concern for the types of patterns we encourage in class is to ensure that people who train with us know exactly where their pellets are going. The people we are training are primarily citizens and police officers working within the legal framework of the United States where we face a significant moral and legal impetus to make sure our projectiles only end up hitting people who are doing something bad enough to earn a gunshot wound.

    That is our primary focus.

    It so happens that in achieving that we also get the maximum terminal ballistic power available from a shotgun.
    Was this using a cylinder bore choke tube?

  6. #176
    Murder Machine, Harmless Fuzzball TCinVA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MattF. View Post
    Was this using a cylinder bore choke tube?
    The pattern pictured was indeed cylinder bore.
    3/15/2016

  7. #177
    Murder Machine, Harmless Fuzzball TCinVA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RevolverRob View Post
    Do you happen to know the range on this pattern and low recoil or full power FC?
    So slight correction...that photo was actually from a different client with a 1301. (They are becoming ubiquitous in my classes) The photo actually shows his pattern at 25 yards with 8 pellet Flight Control.

    Think about that: 8 pellet flight control out of that gun doesn't even leave the B8 black at 25 yards.

    The client who used 9 pellet in his gun saw the flyer phenomenon with most of the pattern in the B8 and the flyers in the C zone of the target at 25.
    3/15/2016

  8. #178
    Site Supporter MattF.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TCinVA View Post
    So slight correction...that photo was actually from a different client with a 1301. (They are becoming ubiquitous in my classes) The photo actually shows his pattern at 25 yards with 8 pellet Flight Control.

    Think about that: 8 pellet flight control out of that gun doesn't even leave the B8 black at 25 yards.

    The client who used 9 pellet in his gun saw the flyer phenomenon with most of the pattern in the B8 and the flyers in the C zone of the target at 25.
    Thanks. Any experience with IC or modfied choke tubes in the 1301? I just acquired a 2nd Gen,and I am going to do some pattern testing. It occurs to me that adding some choke might extend the practical range of the gun.
    Last edited by MattF.; 10-02-2019 at 10:38 AM.

  9. #179
    Murder Machine, Harmless Fuzzball TCinVA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MattF. View Post
    Thanks. Any experience with IC or modfied choke tubes in the 1301? I just acquired a 2nd Gen,and I am going to do some pattern testing. It occurs to me that adding some choke might extend the practical range of the gun.
    To my knowledge I haven't seen any Gen2 guns on the line with something other than cylinder bore chokes in them.

    The choke can be a double edged sword with FFC. On some guns it may indeed result in a better pattern. On others the constriction can actually drag on the wad and cause it to separate from the shot column sooner, resulting in a much wider pattern than desired.

    I wish I could give you a rule of thumb, but unfortunately there are so many variables I can't. So I would absolutely encourage you to try your buckshot with different chokes and see what it does. You may also want to pattern with some non-FC buckshot to see what those choke options do for you.

    Tighter chokes can sometimes tighten up a pattern and other times make it worse because it forces more contact between pellets which leads to more flat spotting and the billiard ball effect. It's tough to say.

    My gut instinct is that the IC in your 1301 probably won't give you any issues. Modified might be enough to strip the wad prematurely. But modified might give you better patterns with non FC buckshot.

    I'd love to see your testing results. All my guns are Gen1, so I can't do the testing myself. #sadpanda
    3/15/2016

  10. #180
    Site Supporter MattF.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TCinVA View Post
    To my knowledge I haven't seen any Gen2 guns on the line with something other than cylinder bore chokes in them.

    I'd love to see your testing results. All my guns are Gen1, so I can't do the testing myself. #sadpanda
    I will do some testing and post the results. Thanks.

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